Gibbon - #FIX_Gibbon

[Severin]

Well, first of all, I wouldn't call Maciej unskilled, He is a world champion, a two time world championship medallist and a two time world cup winner, but if you say so.

And yeah, you can say that jumpers who can pull of Gibbon perfectly are better players. That's true, at least for the physics we have right now. But that doesn't change the fact, that a gibbon takeoff looks nothing like a real life takeoff. It hasn't in DSJ2 and it doesn't in DSJ4. But the approach of this game is still to be a sim, so it should also look like a sim.

And if you take gibbon away, there'll still be more skilled players and less skilled players, so there'll still be players jumping further, players jumping shorter.

[MikesCZ]

Humans are not robots, they make mistakes in take off, or during flight, or landing, then they start to tilt, lose nerves...there is lot of jumps in one cup, you can get distracted, lose focus and make worse jumps easily. So I don't think we get to the point where everyone jumps the same distance....game will still reward those who put in hundreds of hours, we will just get rid of the ridiculous visuals that gibbon creates.

Agree that now is a good time to implement as it is after winter season.

[Xinitiao]

How do you imagine playing DSJ 4 without gibbon? The only problem should be the perfect take off in this game? And what then ? 200 people will jump the same distance?

It reads like the flight in dsj4 consists only of gibbon After 1000000 jumps in dsj4 you might forget that the most difficult part of dsj4 to master for new players is controlling the jumper's position in flight Just look at the bottom part of daily online HRs.

Well, first of all, I wouldn't call Maciej unskilled, He is a world champion, a two time world championship medallist and a two time world cup winner, but if you say so.

He's got no online World Records though

[Dangerous Dave]

If you compare DSJ 4 to real jumps, then you can see the difference between, for example, Maciej Kot and Dawid Kubacki.They both have skis and both of them make take-off, but that's where it ends, one will jump 100m and the other will jump 140m, one has the skill, the other doesn't.How do you imagine playing DSJ 4 without gibbon? The only problem should be the perfect take off in this game? And what then ? 200 people will jump the same distance? You will jump 140 meters at the competition, and you'll get to 50 and you jumped the same meters, then you will write to Jussi that game is broken, because those who have skill they get 20 and you get 18.5 notes, and he has to change that because it's not fair.I recommend it to no-skilled players, let Jussi make you a test server for the summer season with what he already has (non gibbon server), I'll give you notes from 20 to 20, and play yourselves, your dreams will finally come true.

So seriously, Jussi there is a clear need for you to implement for the summer period for testing what you have created (no gibbon), you will have time to make adjustments, and players for tests, maybe it will work.

You are completely missing the point. People (at least the ones in this thread) are not complaining about gibbon because it is "too hard" or because they're hoping that removing it would magically turn them into top players. They also do not want the skill factor to completely disappear from the game, as you're implying. The problem with it is the fact that it is a physics exploit that looks unrealistic and just plain stupid. The game clearly wasn't meant to look like that. The slide bug was basically the same thing - you could learn it and use it to your advantage, it technically wasn't "cheating", but it was unrealistic and looked stupid. If the slide bug has been fixed, then gibbon should be fixed as well.

And it's not like the game will be any easier without gibbon. The take-off, transition to flight phase, the flight itself and landing are all very important parts of the jump that take countless hours to master. Removing gibbon will make one of those parts different, but it will definitely not make it super easy for anyone to do perfectly.

I agree that now is the right time to test an anti-gibbon system to make sure it has no big flaws or oversights for the next winter season. Clearly there is a lot of demand for it.

[Xinitiao]

Severin meant Maciej Kot probably

I was talking about him too

[MikesCZ]

@Jussi - there is lot of new comments, including from two real ski jumpers - can we get your statement please?

[Martin Kafka]

Why is this suddenly an issue after more than 10 years? It has been there since day one. It's inherent part of physics. It was present in DSJ2 (and widely used), as well as in DSJ3, only not as pronounced due to somewhat stiffer physics. I don't recall such passionate discussions back then. I understand the removal of take-off bug (pre-v1.1 in DSJ3), slide bug and sevobug, because these had nothing to do with actually performing a jump, they only artificially extended length by exploiting vulnerabilites. The so-called gibbon is not an exploit per se. Even if you don't go for it on purpose, you still unintentionally use some of its mechanics on well executed jumps. Where do you draw the line between a 'clean' jump and an obvious gibbon attempt? This is very thin ice. I honestly don't care whether it stays or not, I'm just not surprised why Jussi may be hesitating in this case as the decision and matter at hand is not as clear-cut as it may seem.

[Xinitiao]

Slide bug has also been for around 10 years. I think the issue is that players who have come back / found dsj4 after 1.7 found out that they need gibbon to be competitive, while it looks very unrealistic and is tedious to perform.

[Severin]

Where do you draw the line between a 'clean' jump and an obvious gibbon attempt? This is very thin ice. I honestly don't care whether it stays or not, I'm just not surprised why Jussi may be hesitating in this case as the decision and matter at hand is not as clear-cut as it may seem.

Well, the line should be where it is in real life.
If you exert to much force on your skis, i.e. a too high angle at take off and then a too fast reaction towards the skis, your skis will react, the result a crash.
It has gotten better with the new bindings, but the basic logic is still the same.

I honestly don't know, if Jussi can implement a system where the game will realize a gibbon is done intently causing too much force on the bindings, skis and this would be the trigger to let the jumper crash. But to have a range where the mouse movement is slow and steady enough without movement changes where the jump will work and otherwise it's a crash would be the most realistic implementation...

[Jussi Koskela]

@Jussi - there is lot of new comments, including from two real ski jumpers - can we get your statement please?

I am still considering different options. Anti-gibbon system requires a reliable and credible change in physics which we don't have yet.

The main difference to reality arises from the overpowered and overcontrollable ankles in DSJ4. It had to be done that way, so that the jumping does not feel sloppy and the player feels being completely in control of the jump.

If anti-gibbon was implemented it would probably be based on detecting excess forces applied to bindings. Something that I already experimented and showed in the example video.

[Xinitiao]

If anti-gibbon was implemented it would probably be based on detecting excess forces applied to bindings.

If so, please make the jumper lose control without the skis falling off, something similar to those replays:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
(this effect can currently be achieved by landing after taking off from the dhill, but before judges manage to give style points)

[briskyten]

I think the removal of the gibbon, is a very good idea, it should be worked out calmly, without any rush, to be fine-tuned for next season already, or test no gibbon in the WOTs in the Summer.
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[he10th3r310]

I'm surprised this is getting done... after like 10 years of waiting. Sad for all those who already did their records using gibbons lol. Though I said already when this started appearing, that it should be fixed, before I started to use it myself. But tbh I'm still unsure if it actually even helps to reach greater distances. But yea, it is not realistic, and if the game wants to be similar to real life, then this kind of shit must be fixed, there is no excuse to it.

Also fix slowmotion and save game cheat too. I think some kind of clock check is enough for both?

[douglasadams]

Former ski jumper here and a long time DSJ player.

Even though using the gibbon technique is slightly controversial but in my opinion it adds a skill-based element to the game.
Without gibbon, successful jumps will almost entirely be just based on the timing and wind.

How gibbon works is that you basically try to achieve and maintain the maximum speed and height after takeoff - which is exactly how it works in real life as well. It may look slightly unrealistic but it gives a good variety to jumping as different hills also require different "gibbon" -technique. In my opinion it is far from being an exploit. It's more like a technique that requires skill to execute.
Learning and mastering gibbon is not the easiest thing to do and without it, the game wouldn't really require any sort of "skill". If gibbon is taken away, I think for many of us it will take the enjoyment out entirely of the game.

For record hunting and online play, it might be a different deal but I guess most of us play the game for our own enjoyment - we play offline trying to beat our own records and enjoy jumping alone or with friends.

[MikesCZ]

Gibbon is difficult and I while I personally would prefer to remove it from the game, I admire guys who can do it in online tourneys regularly. I learned it in offline modes and it improved my PBs, but in online I usually just jump regularly, I am not consistent enough to do gibbon in online cups.

the game wouldn't really require any sort of "skill"

This I don't agree with - there is so much you can do wrong in a single jump even without gibbon - it's not just timing on take off, the whole flight is as much important...you can do great takeoff but if you are tilted at slightly wrong angle or do more movements in the air than needed, your jump will not be great. And correct flight position differs per hill and you need to adjust during flight based on hill profile, but you know this very well I assume

If we look at the leaderboards and total lengths stats, we can see that even guys who jump without gibbon can be among the top 20 in the world, better than plenty of gibbon users.