Open letter to Jussi about suggestions

Ideas and suggestions for improving DSJ4.
EyTschej
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Open letter to Jussi about suggestions

Post by EyTschej »

Dear Jussi,

hope you're doing fine :)

I took some time to properly write some suggestions down, which in my opinion shouldn't be too complicated to implement, but would improve the game much more than even you might have thought it possible - at least that's what I dearly hope ;)

1. Start gates instead of non-realistic wind influence during in-run

Making a new game should introduce some new features: Start gates are a both realistic and necessary new feature to the DSJ series. It will make jumping more realistic since the wind will only affect the jumper after take-off. In order to adjust speed, a CPU jury will set the gate automatically during contests and there will be plus or minus points for gate change (like in reality). In practice mode, the player can choose the start gate freely.

2. Advanced jumper control

While DSJ3 had already a pretty advanced player control system, side-control was missing even though the jumper could sometimes start to twist and turn sideways. So basically, when that happened, the player was not in full control over the jumper anymore, just like in RTL Ski Jumping where the player also had barely any control over the jumper during the jump itself. Instead of advancing jumper control in DSJ4, jumper control has been reduced instead.

In reality, when someone jumps, his upper body is raised up. In ski jumping, however, it is necessary to keep the upper body low, as seen on TV by professional ski jumpers. In order to do that, you have to be able to work against that natural behaviour of pulling the upper body up since you’d otherwise lose too much speed. In DSJ4, this would currently result in the jumper crashing. Instead, you would have to do nothing – as if you were playing RTL Ski Jumping.

After take-off and pushing the upper body down, the angle of the skis has to be determined. In DSJ3, you could perfectly adjust that angle during flight and react to changing winds during the flight – which often happens in DSJ3. In DSJ4, however, you can’t adjust that angle anymore, it seems fixed. Instead, you move the whole jumper-ski-system forward or backward, as if the jumper was only a dummy doll fixed to a pair of jumping skis. Of course, you don’t have to adjust that angle as much as in DSJ3 anymore, since there are no changing winds during flight anymore, but that is not a good solution. In reality, there can well be backwind at take-off and headwind in the mid-section of the hill. I understand that changing winds as in DSJ3 needed to be prevented due to the missing chance of adjusting the ski angle, but that’s just another good reason to bring back the advanced control system of DSJ3 when it was possible to adjust that ski angle.

Without being responsible for keeping the upper body low at take-off and without being responsible for adjusting the ski angle, the player basically only controls take-off and landing anymore. Just like in RTL Ski Jumping. DSJ was always the better game because it provided a much further advanced and more realistic jumper control system. There was no need to change that control system, but an addition of side-movements, which could be controlled by way of having a small window in the top right corner which shows the player from behind, would be a further improvement of the excellent jumper control system of DSJ3 which also ensures that DSJ4 will have a new control system since it’s a new game. Reducing the control system in order to have a new control system is not the right choice, advancing it would be!

3. Physics

New wind physics are basically great, but ski physics need some adjustment. In DSJ3, the skis were a little too heavy and not flexible, in DSJ4, they are too light, they almost feel like feathers in the wind. However, real jumping skis are heavier than it seems on TV and on a scale of “ski hardness” from 1 to 10, when DSJ3 was 1 and DSJ4 was 10, I think the right value would be 6 or 7. With the skis being a little harder, minor adjustments during the flight also shouldn’t have an impact as huge as it’s currently the case.

4. Online records for Online Mode

Offline records are single player records and online mode is the multiplayer mode of DSJ. Accordingly, there should be separate records for each mode. It should also add to the excitement of playing online against other players, when someone jumps a new hill record “in front of a live audience” rather than jumping a new hill record offline when no-one is there to witness that moment.

5. Display record lines as game setting

In the settings menu, it should be possible to select which record lines will be shown. Plain and simple.

6. Team mode for Online Mode

There should be a possibility to start team competitions. The first step is to start a team in which three other players can join. Players may choose which team to join or they can click on a “random join” button to randomly join a team. Also, a team can be filled with up to three average CPU jumpers, so that everyone can take part in team competitions, but a team with CPU jumpers shouldn’t be able to win due to the CPU jumpers being average only. Once the team is full and ready to go, the team captain can enter a team competition. The captain of the team will have the ability to kick players from the team, but only in between competitions. Also, the rest of the team might vote a teammate off with 3 votes, which could be the team captain in which case a new team captain is determined automatically. There are no restrictions as to a player’s nationality. Personal online ratings will not be affected by team competitions.

7. Quick Play Mode for Online Mode

There should be game rooms for fast play in which the waiting time in between jumps is reduced to 5 seconds instead of 10 seconds. Since there is always someone who doesn’t click the Ready button, a reduction to 5 seconds is the only way to provide faster competitions for players that want faster competitions. However, this should only be an additional mode since everyone, who loves staring at the screen for 10 seconds doing nothing, should still be able to do so.

8. CPU jumpers

Bring back CPU jumpers that don’t take ages to generate results, just like in DSJ2. There is no need to simulate their jumps since no-one wants to watch CPU jumpers jump anyway. Only generate their results based on a formula with a few key factors, that’s all we need for single player mode. Again, no-one wants to WATCH CPU jumpers ...

9. Career mode

A simple career mode could easily be added to the game in a future update. If an easily added simple career mode is wanted, I could share more thoughts on this. And no, I’m NOT talking about some super complex career mode which would certainly be too much work for a single person. A good career mode doesn’t have to be complex in order to be entertaining.

10. Offline record hunting mode

There should be a special offline record hunting mode in which there is always random headwind of 0.5 m/s to the limit of DSJ4. This way, players won't have to start and quit competitions repeatedly until the wind is "right". Also, this mode would be similar to practice mode: You play with your "own" jumper (the one from practice mode) and will have endless jumps available. There is no competition going on, you can't add additional jumpers and won't have to. You can go on hunting for new personal records as long as you want.

That's all. Looking forward to proper feedback. Thanks for reading.

Kind regards,
Andy Jakesch
Last edited by EyTschej on 25 Feb 2011, 11:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Jussi Koskela
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Post by Jussi Koskela »

Many suggestions... I'll reply to the first one for the beginning. :)
1. The following versions will have the start gates system in effect (it's already pretty much finished). It works now the same way as you described, except the gate won't change during the competition as the wind is about the same for all the jumpers and thus no gate or wind compensation points are awarded. The wind will still have some effect during the inrun but I will reduce it a little.
Severin
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Post by Severin »

nice one :)

Though one question occurs: How will you change the hillrecord system? Different records for different gates?
EyTschej
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Post by EyTschej »

Okay, if there is no change of gates during a competition AT FIRST, that's at least a nice and very welcome beginning. Should certainly add to the fun. However, we know from reality that wind does change (not as crazy as in DSJ3, but it does change), so I think that the wind should still change a little more at some (and only some!) competitions and require a gate change. That should be a feature for a future update. It needs testing first, of course, to implement a CPU jury that reacts accordingly. Wind shouldn't change as drastically as in DSJ3, but gate changes would add to the realism factor of DSJ, of course.

Since Severin responded as well: How is the impact of the wind during in-run in real ski jumping? I would think that especially backwind doesn't really play any role since the in-run itself probably blocks most of the backwind anyway?

Oh, and I didn't ask for wind points btw, if my words made that impression. I still believe that the gate rule and the gate points are a good thing, but the wind points are nonsense because the actual impact of the wind can't really be measured unless the wind is measured by chips on the athlete's jump suit and skis, I believe. But that's a problem of real ski jumping and shouldn't become a problem of DSJ ;)
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mask
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Post by mask »

Severin wrote:nice one :)

Though one question occurs: How will you change the hillrecord system? Different records for different gates?
Maybe in competition jumpers competed on default gate (for example 10) and with this gate would be hillrecords.

Sry for english but i'm learning it (i do not use google translate :D)
Jussi Koskela
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Post by Jussi Koskela »

Severin wrote:nice one :)

Though one question occurs: How will you change the hillrecord system? Different records for different gates?
I was planning to adjust the gate formula so that the head winds give usually a bit longer jumps and to keep the hill record system the same for all gates. The gate will be adjustable only in the practice mode.
Severin
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Post by Severin »

perfect solution
Since Severin responded as well: How is the impact of the wind during in-run in real ski jumping? I would think that especially backwind doesn't really play any role since the in-run itself probably blocks most of the backwind anyway?
Quite true, backwind has no influence, huge headwind can have an impact on the inrun, though I'd say it's quite small...
Metsi
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Post by Metsi »

I still don't get why we need that 'change gate' option.
In online mode everyone has the same wind so the point compensation is useless in my opinion.
In offline WC mode the whole passion is about finding the right wind to beat the record.
And if you put that option in practice mode we will get spammed by replays from practice mode showing records made from the highest gate.
So, again, why do we even consider this improvement? :wink:
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Maczo199
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Post by Maczo199 »

Hi everyone :)

I have this idea to the DSJ 4, was a system of three levels of wind as in ski jumping .

you to do such a thing?

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bulwa11
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Post by bulwa11 »

Metsi wrote:I still don't get why we need that 'change gate' option.
In online mode everyone has the same wind so the point compensation is useless in my opinion.
In offline WC mode the whole passion is about finding the right wind to beat the record.
And if you put that option in practice mode we will get spammed by replays from practice mode showing records made from the highest gate.
So, again, why do we even consider this improvement? :wink:

aside from spammers there will also be people who play 'fair' and have fun and realistic experience with this gate feature. I cant wait to try this out.
I always wanted to see that in DSJ. Gives people more freedom... and that freedom is one of the most important thongs for me. I mean its great that we are free to take a jump in the middle of the inrun. Its what counts for me: I am not blocked by the game. The same goes to racing games for exapmle. In most games when you drive into the pits the AI takes over. But take rFactot for instance. Total freedom, You drive where you want when you want and no one forces to turn on the speed limiter etc etc


Thats why I think this is a great option :) And if its Training only then there wont be any high gate records online :)

cheers
EyTschej
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Post by EyTschej »

Metsi wrote:I still don't get why we need that 'change gate' option.
In online mode everyone has the same wind so the point compensation is useless in my opinion.
In offline WC mode the whole passion is about finding the right wind to beat the record.
News flash: Some players actually want to play a whole World Cup with CPU jumpers in offline mode.

But you accidentally reminded of another suggestion I wanted to make ...

10. Offline record hunting mode

There should be a special offline record hunting mode in which there is always random headwind of 0.5 m/s to the limit of DSJ4. This way, players won't have to start and quit competitions repeatedly until the wind is "right". Also, this mode would be similar to practice mode: You play with your "own" jumper (the one from practice mode) and will have endless jumps available. There is no competition going on, you can't add additional jumpers and won't have to. You can go on hunting for new personal records as long as you want.
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pepsiman89
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Post by pepsiman89 »

well, i like most of your ideas, i only have a disagreement with 8

ive always liked watching the CPU jumpers jump in DSJ 2 and DSJ3, it just looked awesome, and for me, if we wont be able to watch CPU players jump then DSJ would lose in popularity. just my 2 cents though. but please Jussi, CPU jumpers and being able to watch their jumps is for me one of the most important things in DSJ4.
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bulwa11
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Post by bulwa11 »

hmm might be wrong but in DSJ 2 computer jumpers were not watchable I think...

and unwatchable AI is still loads better than no AI
pepsiman89
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Post by pepsiman89 »

bulwa11 wrote:hmm might be wrong but in DSJ 2 computer jumpers were not watchable I think...

and unwatchable AI is still loads better than no AI
you might be right about that.. i havent played DSJ2 for ages cause win7 doesent support it and dosbox sucks (atleast for me)

sure unwatchable AI is better that no AI, but watchable AI would make the game much more interesting for me (and im sure many other people)... and im sure Jussi will try his best to include that in DSJ4
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Bjørn Andre Monsen
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Post by Bjørn Andre Monsen »

Jussi Koskela wrote:Many suggestions... I'll reply to the first one for the beginning. :)
1. The following versions will have the start gates system in effect (it's already pretty much finished). It works now the same way as you described, except the gate won't change during the competition as the wind is about the same for all the jumpers and thus no gate or wind compensation points are awarded. The wind will still have some effect during the inrun but I will reduce it a little.
but i practice? can vve be able to adjust the startegate like vve adjust te vvind?
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