Deluxe Ski Jump Forum

Ok, first of all: sorry for the wall of text, but please don't reply without reading through it.
I know there is already a poll about online records, and that this is somewhat related, but it's still a separate topic.

Every now and then, someone asks for a save-function or an option to choose wind/gate in offline mode.
The answer is a clear no, with the reasoning that it would allow people to constantly jump in perfect conditions.
I wish to talk about this reasoning, as I believe many have disagreed with it, but there never was a proper discussion.

NOTE: this is not a petition or a survey, nor is it a direct feature request. I simply want to see what people think about this, because I've been thinking about it for quite a while.

Two points that should at least be covered in this discussion:
[1]: why is it bad to let people jump in good winds whenever they want?
[2]: does the current system help enforce the philosophy behind [1]?

I am actually a little unsure about [1]. Is it supposed to be realism: in the real world you can't just decide to make a record? As this is the best I can come up with, I will assume it in my reasoning. On a basic level I totally agree with this: records would be more interesting if they were more sporadic, organic and evolving and if there were larger differences between players. In practice, I am not seeing this being fulfilled: a new hill is released and only days later the world records are (probably) very close to the theoretical maximum. So it would seem that [2] does not hold.

Let's take a look at [2]: I tend to think that the current policy of not officially allowing people to constantly jump with perfect wind is effectively useless, because it can trivially be circumvented by starting a game with a huge number of jumpers/teams over and over again until you find the perfect conditions. After that you will have a practically unlimited amount of potentially good jumps. The only limitation to this is time, which only causes a disadvantage to people who are not willing to go through this quite tedious process. Perhaps, it is thought that the tediousness will prevent people from abusing this loophole? In that case, this system could work. However, a lot of people hunt for winds (probably everyone in the top 50 in every hill if not more, myself included).

Right now, instead of enforcing the views behind [1], it feels like the game is rather just punsihing people who do not have the time to restart again and again for perfect winds. Records should be about skill, not patience, and when you think about it, does it really make sense to sit in front of a computer, possibly for hours, just for waiting for a good random number? But this is what you have to do to be able to compete. I think this is not ideal.

I think online records is the best way to realize [1]. Online, it is not possible to hunt for winds, and everyone will have the same jumping conditions at all times. We could still have offline records as well, but the two records would serve two different purposes: online records would work in accordance with [1], and would create a pretty accurate picture of player skill; offline records would create a reference by showing the theoretical perfect jump lengths in each hill. Of course, online records would be a subset of offline records. Online records could also be limited to tournaments, if otherwise considered to have part (if a very small part) of the same effect as the current system. Perhaps there is an even better system, but I can't think of one.

Thoughts?

I agree there should be two record lists offline and online and it would make the online game more interseting and popular

I agree especially to "Online records could also be limited to tournaments" part. Things to consider is how the server would handle upload bursts if there happens to be "perfect" wind seed for a round.

Nice text. Totally agree with you. Especially with this part -

Right now, instead of enforcing the views behind [1], it feels like the game is rather just punsihing people who do not have the time to restart again and again for perfect winds. Records should be about skill, not patience, and when you think about it, does it really make sense to sit in front of a computer, possibly for hours, just for waiting for a good random number? But this is what you have to do to be able to compete. I think this is not ideal.

So , definitely the best option from all of these would be to enable Online Records (with random winds - and maybe even only in "official" tournaments) and to enable wind choosing in offline mode, since many people (i am one of them) can't really spend 1-2 hours in front of computer, just for searching "perfect" wind. After that, even you found some good wind, you'll have to wait for a perfect moment / perfect takeoff, jump and all of that and that takes some time , aswell.

Yes for online records! But not only on official tournaments. In World Cup, New Hills Cup and others rating rooms too. Why? Because more player will be play online every moment in the day Currently only in the evening are many players.

I am one of those guys who don't hunt hill records offline (this doesn't mean I never did it) so most of my records come from online servers anyway. Still I voted for separating online and offline hill records as I think it would bring more players to online + it would be more interesting (we could see some interesting names holding the online hill record for some hill).

Right now, instead of enforcing the views behind [1], it feels like the game is rather just punsihing people who do not have the time to restart again and again for perfect winds. Records should be about skill, not patience, and when you think about it, does it really make sense to sit in front of a computer, possibly for hours, just for waiting for a good random number? But this is what you have to do to be able to compete. I think this is not ideal.

I'm 100% with you. Online records would be a very cool feature. And for the offline records: waiting 1 hour for the perfect gate+wind is just a waste of time. Then you jump, let's say 150 jumps and maybe for 10-20 the conditions are ideal for a new PB. This is just crazy. I often minimize my game and get my PC in standby mode so I can jump on the next day too, because sometimes I just don't have the time. I personally don't see the difference, when Training Mode would count for the records (without gate choosing of course) to now. Because the top 30 on every hill are with nearly perfect conditions.

I'd love to see, if Jussi would bring himself in into this discussion.

davisp wrote:I often minimize my game and get my PC in standby mode so I can jump on the next day too, because sometimes I just don't have the time.

Yes. These are the kinds of work-arounds that people do to achieve the functionality of a missing feature. I think the design is underestimating the perceverance and resourcefullness of users. Personally I never did that, putting the PC to sleep, but of course I realized it was possible. An even more extreme hack that I once thought of (but never used because that would certainly feel like cheating to me, plus it would be a bit overkill anyway) is to play the game in a virtual machine and just take a snapshot when you get perfect wind, there you go: save functionality. So it's certainly possible to get around this limitation, it just takes some effort and a "flexible conscience".

your english is damn good

i will try to answer in "my" english:

first of all
online records feature should be implemented in the game
because it is another proof of the skills of the player
and you all have the same wind conditions and the names on the list would be a little bit different i think

but on the other hand
what is wrong about players who only plays offline?
if online records would be on a second records list - i know that the offline record list doesn't get even less attention
i can hear the posts in the near future - "he is so bad in online, his offline records doesn't mean anything", "he is a cheater because of the huge difference online/offline", "he doesn't play online, i don't care about him and his offline records", bla bla bla ...


so it is a very tricky situation
online records yes or no ...


in my point of view:
if this feature would be implemented, i would buy the online feature quite likely
and more people would buy that and play online
so jussi gets more money

but i DONT have the time to play online - the few time i have i am on offline record hunt
either online or offline records ....

I think: Someone who is offline very good is online also very good. The only thing may be a lack of consistent in online jumping, but if you spend some time you will get it (taking less risk, etc.).
But that is not really the thing we're talking about.

@Dominik: You as the best austrian jumper, are you for or against a record hunting mode in offline game? You would have more time to jump online , if you don't have to seek the best conditions

So enabling and disabling this feature (when disabled - wind would be selected randomly, as it is now ; when enabled - you can select it) would be best option imo. And yes, i also noticed that your english is amazing.

in my opinion
the oflline records should remain like now
but you all can have your online records list - it is not the big problem for me
maybe this feature let me rethink and takes me to more online gaming ... maybe ...

but the thing i know is that there would be even less attention on the offline records ...

I don't think that there would be less attention to the offline list. A world record is a world record and because online gaming costs money and not everyone is into it both lists will have the same prestige. Also I don't really think that the top 10 on each hill would change dramatically with record hunt mode, because they're all done with perfect conditions. I think we're everywhere, except the new hills, pretty much at the maximum. The length wouldn't change but maybe the amount of people who reach it. But whatever I'm pro online records and pro offline record hunt modus. Pro for everything

Does anyone know, if Jussi said sometime in the past anything on this subject?

trust me .... there WILL be even less attention!!!

anyway
online record feature would be interesting and this is why jussi can do it

although i don't have the time to play online
i go to work, go to gym, have a girlfriend, family and friends and on weekends there are so many things to do which are much more important than dsj records