Open letter to Jussi about suggestions

[EyTschej]

Please, Jussi ... try to find the time to give a couple of extra feedback.

[Jussi Koskela]

3. Physics

New wind physics are basically great, but ski physics need some adjustment. In DSJ3, the skis were a little too heavy and not flexible, in DSJ4, they are too light, they almost feel like feathers in the wind. However, real jumping skis are heavier than it seems on TV and on a scale of “ski hardness” from 1 to 10, when DSJ3 was 1 and DSJ4 was 10, I think the right value would be 6 or 7. With the skis being a little harder, minor adjustments during the flight also shouldn’t have an impact as huge as it’s currently the case.

The skis in DSJ4 weigh 2,6 kg which matches the reality. Anyway, I raised the air resistance on them a bit which makes them feel more heavy. For the stiffness of real skis I don't have any numerical data, so the current one is just a guesstimate. I'll still do some experiments on it.

[Grufugl]

4. Online records for Online Mode

Offline records are single player records and online mode is the multiplayer mode of DSJ. Accordingly, there should be separate records for each mode. It should also add to the excitement of playing online against other players, when someone jumps a new hill record “in front of a live audience” rather than jumping a new hill record offline when no-one is there to witness that moment.

I definately support this, and I still think it should be done the way I suggested it for dsj3 here: http://www.mediamond.fi/forum/viewtopic ... ight=#4519

[Grufugl]

7. Quick Play Mode for Online Mode

There should be game rooms for fast play in which the waiting time in between jumps is reduced to 5 seconds instead of 10 seconds. Since there is always someone who doesn’t click the Ready button, a reduction to 5 seconds is the only way to provide faster competitions for players that want faster competitions. However, this should only be an additional mode since everyone, who loves staring at the screen for 10 seconds doing nothing, should still be able to do so.

This could be a good way of solving the problem. Obviously, the vast majority enjoys a good pace, since usually ca 90% presses "ready" within a couple of seconds. But as OP says, there is (almost) always someone who doesn’t. This means that the way things are today, one could just as well remove the whole hold/ready-button. The way it works today, it creates a lot of irritation among the players. Something should be done about this.

[premier]

The skis in DSJ4 weigh 2,6 kg which matches the reality. Anyway, I raised the air resistance on them a bit which makes them feel more heavy. For the stiffness of real skis I don't have any numerical data, so the current one is just a guesstimate. I'll still do some experiments on it.

wow , can you tell how much the jumper weigh? and how tall is he ? im just curious

[Thanatos]

hmm might be wrong but in DSJ 2 computer jumpers were not watchable I think...

and unwatchable AI is still loads better than no AI

Sometimes I watched, sometimes I didn't.

So you're wrong. It was possible, but you were able to turn it off. Same thing with DSJ3, and I think that was one feature that made DSJ so special to me, because all other games prevented to watch CPU actions.
You got calculated crap, jumper data was fixed. DSJ made it possible to have up- and downturns between seasons, even for CPU jumpers. Example, uh, maybe 2009-10 Schmitt just brings it, next he can't do better than 15th. Just because you've reduced "Skill level" or "Assurance" about 20 percent. Awesome.

Otherwise...
Don't play for three months, maybe you've no chance to beat i.e. 2005 Ahonen with 100/100 skills.And it's just cruel to watch, gettin' beaten by some CPU pixels - but motivation, too. Sure, next time we'll do better.
(In other words, in comparison with RTL Ski Jumping DSJ is just great. Because after three months, your RTL Jumper would win, for the simple reason that he has suit, ski and helmet bonuses. He would win. Even if his "take off" is horrible...)

Uh, shouldn't write around 5 o'clock, txt sounds awful.

[Ascot]

nice one

Though one question occurs: How will you change the hillrecord system? Different records for different gates?

Just like in real . There is no record for each gate .

_____________

Adam Malysz !

[philipez]

I still don't get why we need that 'change gate' option.
In online mode everyone has the same wind so the point compensation is useless in my opinion.
In offline WC mode the whole passion is about finding the right wind to beat the record.

News flash: Some players actually want to play a whole World Cup with CPU jumpers in offline mode.

But you accidentally reminded of another suggestion I wanted to make ...

10. Offline record hunting mode

There should be a special offline record hunting mode in which there is always random headwind of 0.5 m/s to the limit of DSJ4. This way, players won't have to start and quit competitions repeatedly until the wind is "right". Also, this mode would be similar to practice mode: You play with your "own" jumper (the one from practice mode) and will have endless jumps available. There is no competition going on, you can't add additional jumpers and won't have to. You can go on hunting for new personal records as long as you want.

i would really like to see the idea of "offline record hunting mode" to be implemented. i think it doesn't make sense to "force" players sitting in front of the computer for 5 to 10 minutes starting and closing world cups and creating up to 100 or even more jumpers. in my opinion this is less real than to create this new mode. maybe it is also easier to prevent cheating because of this special mode?

[Wolf]

Dear Jussi,

hope you're doing fine

I took some time to properly write some suggestions down, which in my opinion shouldn't be too complicated to implement, but would improve the game much more than even you might have thought it possible - at least that's what I dearly hope

1. Start gates instead of non-realistic wind influence during in-run

Making a new game should introduce some new features: Start gates are a both realistic and necessary new feature to the DSJ series. It will make jumping more realistic since the wind will only affect the jumper after take-off. In order to adjust speed, a CPU jury will set the gate automatically during contests and there will be plus or minus points for gate change (like in reality). In practice mode, the player can choose the start gate freely.

2. Advanced jumper control

While DSJ3 had already a pretty advanced player control system, side-control was missing even though the jumper could sometimes start to twist and turn sideways. So basically, when that happened, the player was not in full control over the jumper anymore, just like in RTL Ski Jumping where the player also had barely any control over the jumper during the jump itself. Instead of advancing jumper control in DSJ4, jumper control has been reduced instead.

In reality, when someone jumps, his upper body is raised up. In ski jumping, however, it is necessary to keep the upper body low, as seen on TV by professional ski jumpers. In order to do that, you have to be able to work against that natural behaviour of pulling the upper body up since you’d otherwise lose too much speed. In DSJ4, this would currently result in the jumper crashing. Instead, you would have to do nothing – as if you were playing RTL Ski Jumping.

After take-off and pushing the upper body down, the angle of the skis has to be determined. In DSJ3, you could perfectly adjust that angle during flight and react to changing winds during the flight – which often happens in DSJ3. In DSJ4, however, you can’t adjust that angle anymore, it seems fixed. Instead, you move the whole jumper-ski-system forward or backward, as if the jumper was only a dummy doll fixed to a pair of jumping skis. Of course, you don’t have to adjust that angle as much as in DSJ3 anymore, since there are no changing winds during flight anymore, but that is not a good solution. In reality, there can well be backwind at take-off and headwind in the mid-section of the hill. I understand that changing winds as in DSJ3 needed to be prevented due to the missing chance of adjusting the ski angle, but that’s just another good reason to bring back the advanced control system of DSJ3 when it was possible to adjust that ski angle.

Without being responsible for keeping the upper body low at take-off and without being responsible for adjusting the ski angle, the player basically only controls take-off and landing anymore. Just like in RTL Ski Jumping. DSJ was always the better game because it provided a much further advanced and more realistic jumper control system. There was no need to change that control system, but an addition of side-movements, which could be controlled by way of having a small window in the top right corner which shows the player from behind, would be a further improvement of the excellent jumper control system of DSJ3 which also ensures that DSJ4 will have a new control system since it’s a new game. Reducing the control system in order to have a new control system is not the right choice, advancing it would be!

3. Physics

New wind physics are basically great, but ski physics need some adjustment. In DSJ3, the skis were a little too heavy and not flexible, in DSJ4, they are too light, they almost feel like feathers in the wind. However, real jumping skis are heavier than it seems on TV and on a scale of “ski hardness” from 1 to 10, when DSJ3 was 1 and DSJ4 was 10, I think the right value would be 6 or 7. With the skis being a little harder, minor adjustments during the flight also shouldn’t have an impact as huge as it’s currently the case.

4. Online records for Online Mode

Offline records are single player records and online mode is the multiplayer mode of DSJ. Accordingly, there should be separate records for each mode. It should also add to the excitement of playing online against other players, when someone jumps a new hill record “in front of a live audience” rather than jumping a new hill record offline when no-one is there to witness that moment.

5. Display record lines as game setting

In the settings menu, it should be possible to select which record lines will be shown. Plain and simple.

6. Team mode for Online Mode

There should be a possibility to start team competitions. The first step is to start a team in which three other players can join. Players may choose which team to join or they can click on a “random join” button to randomly join a team. Also, a team can be filled with up to three average CPU jumpers, so that everyone can take part in team competitions, but a team with CPU jumpers shouldn’t be able to win due to the CPU jumpers being average only. Once the team is full and ready to go, the team captain can enter a team competition. The captain of the team will have the ability to kick players from the team, but only in between competitions. Also, the rest of the team might vote a teammate off with 3 votes, which could be the team captain in which case a new team captain is determined automatically. There are no restrictions as to a player’s nationality. Personal online ratings will not be affected by team competitions.

7. Quick Play Mode for Online Mode

There should be game rooms for fast play in which the waiting time in between jumps is reduced to 5 seconds instead of 10 seconds. Since there is always someone who doesn’t click the Ready button, a reduction to 5 seconds is the only way to provide faster competitions for players that want faster competitions. However, this should only be an additional mode since everyone, who loves staring at the screen for 10 seconds doing nothing, should still be able to do so.

8. CPU jumpers

Bring back CPU jumpers that don’t take ages to generate results, just like in DSJ2. There is no need to simulate their jumps since no-one wants to watch CPU jumpers jump anyway. Only generate their results based on a formula with a few key factors, that’s all we need for single player mode. Again, no-one wants to WATCH CPU jumpers ...

9. Career mode

A simple career mode could easily be added to the game in a future update. If an easily added simple career mode is wanted, I could share more thoughts on this. And no, I’m NOT talking about some super complex career mode which would certainly be too much work for a single person. A good career mode doesn’t have to be complex in order to be entertaining.

10. Offline record hunting mode

There should be a special offline record hunting mode in which there is always random headwind of 0.5 m/s to the limit of DSJ4. This way, players won't have to start and quit competitions repeatedly until the wind is "right". Also, this mode would be similar to practice mode: You play with your "own" jumper (the one from practice mode) and will have endless jumps available. There is no competition going on, you can't add additional jumpers and won't have to. You can go on hunting for new personal records as long as you want.

That's all. Looking forward to proper feedback. Thanks for reading.

Kind regards,
Andy Jakesch

RTL skijumping has nothing to do with real physics, and any comparison to this game have no sense !

[Ascot]

Hi everyone

I have this idea to the DSJ 4, was a system of three levels of wind as in ski jumping .

you to do such a thing?

That was my idea ?!

[Alan_Cieslar]

Hi everyone

I have this idea to the DSJ 4, was a system of three levels of wind as in ski jumping .

you to do such a thing?

That was my idea ?!

This idea already has already been implemented into the game.

Look at the video below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_8m7uAdQqQ

0:07 - 2m/s
0:11 - 2.3m/s
0:17 - 2.2m/s

[skiflyer11]

Hi everyone

I have this idea to the DSJ 4, was a system of three levels of wind as in ski jumping .

you to do such a thing?

That was my idea ?!

This idea already has already been implemented into the game.

Look at the video below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_8m7uAdQqQ

0:07 - 2m/s
0:11 - 2.3m/s
0:17 - 2.2m/s

Thats not the same

[Ascot]

Yes .
NOt the same .
I think Jussi can make it like
Need for Lead : XXXXXX
And when the Jumper drives of
it goes away

[Wolf]

Dear Jussi,

hope you're doing fine

I took some time to properly write some suggestions down, which in my opinion shouldn't be too complicated to implement, but would improve the game much more than even you might have thought it possible - at least that's what I dearly hope

1. Start gates instead of non-realistic wind influence during in-run

Making a new game should introduce some new features: Start gates are a both realistic and necessary new feature to the DSJ series. It will make jumping more realistic since the wind will only affect the jumper after take-off. In order to adjust speed, a CPU jury will set the gate automatically during contests and there will be plus or minus points for gate change (like in reality). In practice mode, the player can choose the start gate freely.

2. Advanced jumper control

While DSJ3 had already a pretty advanced player control system, side-control was missing even though the jumper could sometimes start to twist and turn sideways. So basically, when that happened, the player was not in full control over the jumper anymore, just like in RTL Ski Jumping where the player also had barely any control over the jumper during the jump itself. Instead of advancing jumper control in DSJ4, jumper control has been reduced instead.

In reality, when someone jumps, his upper body is raised up. In ski jumping, however, it is necessary to keep the upper body low, as seen on TV by professional ski jumpers. In order to do that, you have to be able to work against that natural behaviour of pulling the upper body up since you’d otherwise lose too much speed. In DSJ4, this would currently result in the jumper crashing. Instead, you would have to do nothing – as if you were playing RTL Ski Jumping.

After take-off and pushing the upper body down, the angle of the skis has to be determined. In DSJ3, you could perfectly adjust that angle during flight and react to changing winds during the flight – which often happens in DSJ3. In DSJ4, however, you can’t adjust that angle anymore, it seems fixed. Instead, you move the whole jumper-ski-system forward or backward, as if the jumper was only a dummy doll fixed to a pair of jumping skis. Of course, you don’t have to adjust that angle as much as in DSJ3 anymore, since there are no changing winds during flight anymore, but that is not a good solution. In reality, there can well be backwind at take-off and headwind in the mid-section of the hill. I understand that changing winds as in DSJ3 needed to be prevented due to the missing chance of adjusting the ski angle, but that’s just another good reason to bring back the advanced control system of DSJ3 when it was possible to adjust that ski angle.

Without being responsible for keeping the upper body low at take-off and without being responsible for adjusting the ski angle, the player basically only controls take-off and landing anymore. Just like in RTL Ski Jumping. DSJ was always the better game because it provided a much further advanced and more realistic jumper control system. There was no need to change that control system, but an addition of side-movements, which could be controlled by way of having a small window in the top right corner which shows the player from behind, would be a further improvement of the excellent jumper control system of DSJ3 which also ensures that DSJ4 will have a new control system since it’s a new game. Reducing the control system in order to have a new control system is not the right choice, advancing it would be!

3. Physics

New wind physics are basically great, but ski physics need some adjustment. In DSJ3, the skis were a little too heavy and not flexible, in DSJ4, they are too light, they almost feel like feathers in the wind. However, real jumping skis are heavier than it seems on TV and on a scale of “ski hardness” from 1 to 10, when DSJ3 was 1 and DSJ4 was 10, I think the right value would be 6 or 7. With the skis being a little harder, minor adjustments during the flight also shouldn’t have an impact as huge as it’s currently the case.

4. Online records for Online Mode

Offline records are single player records and online mode is the multiplayer mode of DSJ. Accordingly, there should be separate records for each mode. It should also add to the excitement of playing online against other players, when someone jumps a new hill record “in front of a live audience” rather than jumping a new hill record offline when no-one is there to witness that moment.

5. Display record lines as game setting

In the settings menu, it should be possible to select which record lines will be shown. Plain and simple.

6. Team mode for Online Mode

There should be a possibility to start team competitions. The first step is to start a team in which three other players can join. Players may choose which team to join or they can click on a “random join” button to randomly join a team. Also, a team can be filled with up to three average CPU jumpers, so that everyone can take part in team competitions, but a team with CPU jumpers shouldn’t be able to win due to the CPU jumpers being average only. Once the team is full and ready to go, the team captain can enter a team competition. The captain of the team will have the ability to kick players from the team, but only in between competitions. Also, the rest of the team might vote a teammate off with 3 votes, which could be the team captain in which case a new team captain is determined automatically. There are no restrictions as to a player’s nationality. Personal online ratings will not be affected by team competitions.

7. Quick Play Mode for Online Mode

There should be game rooms for fast play in which the waiting time in between jumps is reduced to 5 seconds instead of 10 seconds. Since there is always someone who doesn’t click the Ready button, a reduction to 5 seconds is the only way to provide faster competitions for players that want faster competitions. However, this should only be an additional mode since everyone, who loves staring at the screen for 10 seconds doing nothing, should still be able to do so.

8. CPU jumpers

Bring back CPU jumpers that don’t take ages to generate results, just like in DSJ2. There is no need to simulate their jumps since no-one wants to watch CPU jumpers jump anyway. Only generate their results based on a formula with a few key factors, that’s all we need for single player mode. Again, no-one wants to WATCH CPU jumpers ...

9. Career mode

A simple career mode could easily be added to the game in a future update. If an easily added simple career mode is wanted, I could share more thoughts on this. And no, I’m NOT talking about some super complex career mode which would certainly be too much work for a single person. A good career mode doesn’t have to be complex in order to be entertaining.

10. Offline record hunting mode

There should be a special offline record hunting mode in which there is always random headwind of 0.5 m/s to the limit of DSJ4. This way, players won't have to start and quit competitions repeatedly until the wind is "right". Also, this mode would be similar to practice mode: You play with your "own" jumper (the one from practice mode) and will have endless jumps available. There is no competition going on, you can't add additional jumpers and won't have to. You can go on hunting for new personal records as long as you want.

That's all. Looking forward to proper feedback. Thanks for reading.

Kind regards,
Andy Jakesch

Physics take-off and placement; jumper-ski/ski-jumper is perfect! Compare that to the movies with real ski jumping and did not suggest any changes - why fix something that is perfect?!

[RobertKranjecFAN]

That was my idea ?!

This idea already has already been implemented into the game.

Look at the video below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_8m7uAdQqQ

0:07 - 2m/s
0:11 - 2.3m/s
0:17 - 2.2m/s

You know it's funny because you used my video, but it doesn't matter!