Guess I'm not the first who gets frustrated about how lame the judges/referees (not sure what they're called in English). The only thing they seem to care about is name, number and length. They do so many mistakes that I'm not sure where to start, but I chose to take Hautamäkki (I think it was) as an example. I think this was some weeks ago, he was on somewhere around 20-25th place after "first half". In second half he didn't jumped that well, and to illustrate how bad he thought his jump was, he didn't even make a try to make a telemark landing. None of the judges seem to notice this, and gave him the same score as Kasai or who it was, who jumped some meters longer, with a close to perfect telemark landing and a beautiful travel through the air.
My point is that the judges seem to have forgotten why they're there. They are there because they're supposed to give people with bad landing and bad "air traveling" a penalty compared to the once who jump beautiful like for example Kasai. However we all now that Kasai will get the same score as for example Damjan, simply because the judges don't bother making a different. They got a few jumpers they always give high score, the rest they don't seem to care about even they decide to make a telemark landing or not. I would like to see an interview with the judges after a competition where they had to answer for why they gave "jumper 1" just as much point as "jumper 2" even jumper 1 didn't even try to put his foot in front of the other.
At last, I wish to hear your opinion about this, because I guess that I'm not the only one who consider this as a big problem?
What should we do about the judges/referees?
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onkelsmerte
- Posts: 418
- Joined: 14 Jan 2008, 18:34
I totaly agree. But it`s always been like this. Its rather sad if you ask me. But i guess there is nothing to do about it. I have seen jumpers recieve styke marks of 19,5 with their ass almost hitting the ground. And in some cases some judges are way to harsh giving 17 to a almost perfect jump, and giving 19 to a way more flawed jump. Kasai/ Bardal who has beautifull style get penalized for lack of name and some more better jumpers gets better style because of name. Sadsad because sometimes the style is veryvery important.
-.- kekbur
-.- kekbur
The criteria for the stlye points can be found on the FIS website. I just recently read them and from what I can recall, the length actually does have an impact on the style points. I can check that out again.
However, there is something wrong about the style points anyway. Years ago, Funaki had 5x20.0 - nowadays, no-one ever gets a 20.0 anymore, not even for perfect style. The last jumper to get a 20.0 must have been Bystöl at the Olympics, I think. But back to Funaki: he had the same style even when he didn't make it to the final round anymore. But the difference was: his "style" points suddenly were ranging from only 16.0 to 18.0 anymore. Funaki is the best example that the "style" points are only something like "bonus points" (for length, name, whatever). He's the best example because no matter what, his style was always the same - just like a robot or something ...
However, there is something wrong about the style points anyway. Years ago, Funaki had 5x20.0 - nowadays, no-one ever gets a 20.0 anymore, not even for perfect style. The last jumper to get a 20.0 must have been Bystöl at the Olympics, I think. But back to Funaki: he had the same style even when he didn't make it to the final round anymore. But the difference was: his "style" points suddenly were ranging from only 16.0 to 18.0 anymore. Funaki is the best example that the "style" points are only something like "bonus points" (for length, name, whatever). He's the best example because no matter what, his style was always the same - just like a robot or something ...
I know there's a new rule that tells the judges to give better style score to jumpers who jump long jumps. Guess it's because you wont get a penalty for setting a new hill record, so I can partly understand that rule. But still, the judges need to pay more attention and make a difference between jumpers who have given a lot of effort in jumping beautifully compared to those who have develop another style who looks really bad.
I don't see your problem with Damjans style. He only has one mistake: the arms are too far away from his body. But this is a problem that most Norwegian jumpers also have. It seems to better for the jump itself, but it's bad according to the style rules ...
Matti Hautamäki doesn't only have a bad style when he's landing, he also always makes a "mistake" right after take-off. He's never ever gonna get a 20.0 for any of his jumps.
Neumayer also was very lucky in the final round. he had like 17.5 and 18.0 although he had no telemark landing. It was more something like an "H"-landing. But he has made himself a name already. At the beginning of the season, he would have received only 16.0 or 16.5. for that jump ...
Matti Hautamäki doesn't only have a bad style when he's landing, he also always makes a "mistake" right after take-off. He's never ever gonna get a 20.0 for any of his jumps.
Neumayer also was very lucky in the final round. he had like 17.5 and 18.0 although he had no telemark landing. It was more something like an "H"-landing. But he has made himself a name already. At the beginning of the season, he would have received only 16.0 or 16.5. for that jump ...
I agree with you that Neumayer is one of the worst case, but in my opinion there's too much space between Damjan's head and skis, kinda like Bystøl jumps. I also think his V-style is weak (though it has improved) and his arms aren't close into his body, though I think this help him fly some extra meters longer.
Well, maybe you misunderstood me a bit with Neumayer. He usually makes a telemark landing. It is an ugly one though. He can't get 2.0 for that landing - more like 1.5 oder 1.0. However, in Willingen in the final round he had no telemark landing at all - plus that parallel landing was also close to a fall. Despite this, he got almost the same style points as for his other jumps in the recent competitions - when he DID make a telemark landing. So what I wanted to stress is, that once you have a certain name, you would get better style points whether you deserve them or not.
And Damjan's flying style ... not everyone has to do it like Funaki and Janda. And about his arms: that "spider" style is also used by most Norwegian jumpers and it DOES help them gain a little more distance. It makes them jump a bit further, this is why they do it. But according to the rules, they needed to receive a style penalty for that. But they usually don't get that penalty. Which is not okay! Remember the time when Boklöv was the first jumper in V-style - he always got a style penalty! It was a new style, a style to jump further. This is pretty much the same with that "Norwegian Spider Style", as I would say. It's just that this change of style is not as obvious as the V-style, so most people don't notice this and therefore there is also not discussion on this matter. But then again, the maximum penalty for these "spider arms" should be 0.5. That won't matter much next week at the Ski Flying World Championships, that would usually only matter at a normal hill competiton when everyone has more or less the same distance and the style judges come to decide over win or lose.
And Damjan's flying style ... not everyone has to do it like Funaki and Janda. And about his arms: that "spider" style is also used by most Norwegian jumpers and it DOES help them gain a little more distance. It makes them jump a bit further, this is why they do it. But according to the rules, they needed to receive a style penalty for that. But they usually don't get that penalty. Which is not okay! Remember the time when Boklöv was the first jumper in V-style - he always got a style penalty! It was a new style, a style to jump further. This is pretty much the same with that "Norwegian Spider Style", as I would say. It's just that this change of style is not as obvious as the V-style, so most people don't notice this and therefore there is also not discussion on this matter. But then again, the maximum penalty for these "spider arms" should be 0.5. That won't matter much next week at the Ski Flying World Championships, that would usually only matter at a normal hill competiton when everyone has more or less the same distance and the style judges come to decide over win or lose.
There is the problem that different judges often vary a lot in what they give for a specific jump, and they vary as some of you say because of the name of the jumper, and some even seem to give a little higher score to jumpers of their own nation. Some judges also vary in an unpredictable manner from jump to jump, probably because they simply is not focused enough on their job... And some judges seem like maybe they don't know the rules 
Anyway, a lot of inconsistent style judging seems to be the case.
It is sad that it has become like this. I don't agree that it has allways been so, but maybe it has been more or less so for the last two decades.
The result of all this is that it adds a big factor of chance (or luck or uncertainty) that I can't see is good for anything. The ever changing wind provides more than enough of chance
The solution? Well, since it has become like it is: Get rid of style points all together and measure only length! Think about it: For take-off and flight, the most efficient style for good length is also beautiful. What we will lose is the telemark landing, but these days they usually fake it anyway. What we will gain is more fair competitions.
Anyway, a lot of inconsistent style judging seems to be the case. It is sad that it has become like this. I don't agree that it has allways been so, but maybe it has been more or less so for the last two decades.
The result of all this is that it adds a big factor of chance (or luck or uncertainty) that I can't see is good for anything. The ever changing wind provides more than enough of chance
The solution? Well, since it has become like it is: Get rid of style points all together and measure only length! Think about it: For take-off and flight, the most efficient style for good length is also beautiful. What we will lose is the telemark landing, but these days they usually fake it anyway. What we will gain is more fair competitions.
That's probably what Neumayer and Uhrmann thought at the last Olympic Games ... buy Bystöl wouldn't have like that ... Neumayer would have won, Uhrmann would have been 2nd - and Bystöl only 4th ...Grufugl wrote:The solution? Well, since it has become like it is: Get rid of style points all together and measure only length!
But due to style points, Bystöl won, Uhrmann was 4th and Neumayer was 8th. Just to point out how big a difference the style points can make ...