Steam release?

Ideas and suggestions for improving DSJ4.
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TehBaggins
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Steam release?

Post by TehBaggins »

Is there a possibility for a release of DSJ 4 on Steam?

I ask because these days it's rare for me to buy my games anywhere else and for DSJ this means a wider release with a bigger audience, better cheat-detection, automatic patching, achievements and so forth. The best part is that the game don't have to be Steam-exclusive if you want to keep your existing model.

I can't be the only one that would like this.
TPo
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Post by TPo »

No. That would propably take a few years...
Total Length: 5353.38 m // 7749.06 m // 1603.92 m
Total Length: 14706.36 m
--
Winner of Ski-Stars World Championships (large hill) // 2nd of Ski-Stars World Championships (team) // Winner of Ski-Stars DSJ2 Cup
mlody5
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Re: Steam release?

Post by mlody5 »

TehBaggins wrote:Is there a possibility for a release of DSJ 4 on Steam?

I ask because these days it's rare for me to buy my games anywhere else and for DSJ this means a wider release with a bigger audience, better cheat-detection, automatic patching, achievements and so forth. The best part is that the game don't have to be Steam-exclusive if you want to keep your existing model.

I can't be the only one that would like this.
it;s not CounterStrike!!
dzamper
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Re: Steam release?

Post by dzamper »

TehBaggins wrote:better cheat-detection
You mean VAC? I think integrating it with DSJ4 would be extremely hard to achieve (if not technically impossible).
TehBaggins wrote:achievements
I don't think DSJ4 is a game in which you can have achievements. What would they be?
TehBaggins
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Re: Steam release?

Post by TehBaggins »

TPo wrote:No. That would propably take a few years...
Actually, it wouldn't. All you need is a working beta or a finished version of the game you want to sell. Submit that to Valve and if they think it's good enough you enter discussions about pricing and marketing.

There's also no exclusivity-deals that needs to be signed, so Jussi can still sell it the way he's always done. Steam will just help the game get out to more people and I can only see that as a good thing.
mlody5 wrote: it;s not CounterStrike!!
Beg your pardon? Steam is as of today the biggest distributor of indie games, bar none. There's also no requirement that a game on Steam use the built-in server browser or anything along those lines, so the core of the game remains unchanged. There is however the possibility of adding this in via the freely available Steam SDK.
dzamper wrote: You mean VAC? I think integrating it with DSJ4 would be extremely hard to achieve (if not technically impossible).
Not VAC at all.

I'm going by what I'm hearing here. Apparently it's possible to detect other running processes and common cheat methods like trainer and cheat engines to see if they interface with programs run through Steam. Say for instance "DSJ4windhack.exe" is running on the PC at the same time as "DSJ4.exe" you can set a flag that will invalidate those jumps automatically if they're uploaded to the record database. Jussi could probably do that himself, but it's a very long and tedious task to so so from scratch, but the SDK/framework is already there to help doing that. Keep in mind I'm not a programmer, but going by hearsay.
dzamper wrote: I don't think DSJ4 is a game in which you can have achievements. What would they be?
A few off the top of my head:
Jump over HS in 1/5/10/15/20/all hills.
Get 5x20 style score.
Win a complete World Cup against CPU jumpers at maxiumum ability.
Post a world top 100 record on any/all hill(s).

Surely more to be had as well.


Basically, releasing on Steam would keep Jussi in charge of everything, it would just add better distribution, better visibility and less hassle. And if you don't like Steam then that's fine as well, just buy the game here like you would normally.
orsvend
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Post by orsvend »

Glad to see someone knows what Steam is about. I am sure it would only bring good things to DSJ!
EyTschej
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Post by EyTschej »

Since there are many indie games on Steam, I've also already thought about DSJ on Steam, but in order to have Steam ackowledge that you have DSJ, you needed to buy it on Steam. For example, I've bought GTA IV and even added it to Steam manually, but Steam itself doesn't acknowledge that I own this game already and I wouldn't be able to buy the two-game-expansion without buying the original game again. I think it would be pretty much the same for DSJ. Anyone who owns the game already wouldn't be able to add it to Steam properly.

And honestly: Why would I BUY the game on Steam? It would only be more expensive that right here on Mediamond. I would only want to add DSJ to Steam so I could show the people in my friends list that I own at virtual skijumping 8) ... and maybe for achievements. But that's out of the question without actually buying the game over Steam, so I think that DSJ on Steam isn't really a good idea for us, the DSJ community. Jussi could only distribute it via Steam to address some new players.
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TehBaggins
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Post by TehBaggins »

EyTschej wrote: And honestly: Why would I BUY the game on Steam? It would only be more expensive that right here on Mediamond. I would only want to add DSJ to Steam so I could show the people in my friends list that I own at virtual skijumping 8) ... and maybe for achievements. But that's out of the question without actually buying the game over Steam, so I think that DSJ on Steam isn't really a good idea for us, the DSJ community. Jussi could only distribute it via Steam to address some new players.
Nothing says that the game would have to be more expensive on Steam. Granted, Valve will take a cut of the proceeds but on the other hand so will whatever payment system Jussi sets up here as well.

And even if Jussi will have a litle less per copy sold on Steam than he would if it was bought through his own site overall I believe he can sell far more copies and in the end gain a lot more from it.

The community would stay rooted here as well. Sure, there would be an influx of new people as there would always be during release of a new version but again I can only see that as a positive. A little annoying at first, but as soon as the initial rush is over we might end up with a more active and vibrant community for it.
EyTschej
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Post by EyTschej »

Like I said: Steam is only an option for new players. I've bought the game right away, cos I thought that DSJ4 didn't only have improved graphics (but haven't found much improvements besides graphics so far unfortunately), so buying over Steam would only be an option for DSJ5 anyway.

Besides: Steam also uses PayPal. Jussi would certainly make less profit from games sold on Steam because he wouldn't only have to share with PayPal (or maybe credit cards, which are rather popular in US and UK ...but skijumping isn't) AND with Valve. So I really don't see Steam as something that's high up on Jussi's to do list. If Jussi thought that Steam would have been a good idea for DSJ4, he probably would have put DSJ4 on Steam before starting sale via Mediamond.
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TehBaggins
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Post by TehBaggins »

Like I said before, it's certain that Steam will command a far larger overhead than straight PayPal as it is today, but it's a simple calculation, really.

Example:

Through Mediamond and PayPal using only word of mouth, let's say DSJ4 sells 10.000 copies. At €15 per copy that €150.000 revenue. Out of this comes PayPal and banking fees associated at around €6500-7000 leaving Jussi with €143.000 to cover all additional costs like hosting, marketing and bandwith.

Through Steam DSJ4 sells 10.000 copies. Valve takes say a 20% cut of this to cover hosting, bandwith, credit card fees and marketing. Revenue of €150.000 of which Jussi gets €120.000 without having to worry about any additional costs relating to hosting.

At the moment it looks like Steam is a raw deal and Jussi would lose out on releasing there. That may be so as none of us know what sory of operational costs he has to deal with when doing this all on his own.

However, say a Steam-release gives a sale of 15.000 copies in stead simply because the game gets more exposure that way. Suddenly the split becomes €225.000 revenue, €180.000 profit in stead. If those extra 5.000 copies are purely because of publicity and visibility through Steam and sales that would never have happened because those buyers have never even heard of DSJ or Mediamond, then Jussi can smile all the way to the bank.

Sure, ideally the shareware way of doing things would still be a viable business model, but with the advent of digital distribution clients like Steam that model is pretty much dead. Yes, there IS a price for entry and a lot of developers think that that price sounds too high but there are simply far too many success stories out there to not entertain the thought and give it a chance.


And why would Steam only be for new players? Old players that played the game before but stopped for whatever reason will most likely not be aware that the new version is out or that Jussi even works on the franchise still might get drawn back in.

Also don't forget that for most gamers it's all about convenience. If I want to purchase from Jussi directly then I first have to know where to go, namely Mediamond.fi. I then have to find the "Purchase"-link, click "Buy", fill out a form on an external web page providing all my billing details or log in to PayPal, wait for the confirmation email, wait for the email with the registration key, go back to Mediamond.fi, find the "Download"-link, download the game, install it, write down the regiastraion details and manually type it in since DSJ doesn't support pasting and don't Alt+Tab easily on my system and then I can start playing.

On Steam I type in "DSJ" in the search box, clcik the storepage link, click buy, confirm the purchase, download automatically and play. Easier and more convenient.


Last point I want to make here: As all indie developers know, piracy is a huge problem for them. After the release of World of Goo it was estimated that 95-98% of the install base were using pirated copies of the game. DSJ has always been trivially easy to pirate if you were so inclined. However, after World of Goo ended up on Steam they saw a huge surge in sales despite how easy it was to play that game without paying for it, simply because it was convenient for people to get it legitimately there.

I'm sure Jussi knows far too well how easy his games are to pirate. Still, the hoops people have to go through to actually purchase it is too much for a lot of people as a valid key will be available online approximately 2,5 nanoseconds after the full game is released. A Steam-release won't eradicate piracy at all, but at that point it will be easier to just buy the game than it would be to pirate it. Currently it's easier to pirate than to buy and that's something that hurts Jussi far more than having to give a larger cut of every sold copy ever will.
EyTschej
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Post by EyTschej »

Your "convenience point" is a bad one: It doesn't matter whether I confirm my Steam or Mediamond purchase via PayPal - it's the same procedure. Whenever there is a "PayPal" buy button, it's aaaaalways the same procedure. :wink:

And apart from that you didn't quite read or understand what I wrote before: If Jussi had thought that Steam was a good idea for DSJ4, he would have released it on Steam. I already "paypaled" it through Mediamond - done deal 8)
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TehBaggins
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Post by TehBaggins »

PayPal is starting to fall out of favour with a lot of the more tech-savvy people out there though, and I personally seek different methods of payment if there's any way of doing so. Since I have my credit card already on Steam I don't have to do anything but click "Confirm" whenever I purchase a game there.

I wasn't writing this specifically for Jussi either, as I'm sure he knows about the various pros and cons of releasing on Steam. It was more as a response to people outright dismissing the idea that DSJ on Steam has any sort of merit at all.

My point still stands though. I found out about DSJ through word of mouth over ten years ago and I've purchased and played every version since. There's bound to be people out there that would be interested in the game, but since this game isn't promoted at all outside word of mouth, then the chances of someone finding it is minimal. A release through Steam or any other popular digital service would bring attention to the franchise in a way not even the most dedicated fanboy can do.
EyTschej
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Post by EyTschej »

TehBaggins wrote:PayPal is starting to fall out of favour with a lot of the more tech-savvy people out there though
You can try to insult me in an indirect way, but that won't really work, so you might just save it. The fact of the matter is that I won't use credit cards since I'd have to pay some extra fee (the credit card company wants to make a living). I don't have to pay any extra fees paying via PayPal.
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TehBaggins
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Post by TehBaggins »

It wasn't an attempt at insulting you. If it came across as that, then I'm sorry.

On the subject of PayPal I'd suggest heading over to the Consumerist or pretty much read any blog or forum that deals in customer complaints. PayPal is by far the most complained about company that deals in online transactions out there, as they have a tendency of always siding with the buyer in case of a dispute. If I win an auction on eBay, pay the seller and received the goods, I can simply log a complaint with PayPal stating any number of reasons why I should get a refund, and I most likely will. Anything from "Item not in condition as described" to "Item never arrived" will net you a refund in a vast majority of cases. Their business practises are also despicable, as described here: http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/pa ... ummary.php

I'm not saying you've ever had problems with them, but there are far too many stories about PayPal screwing people out of money all over the place to dismiss it.
EyTschej
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Post by EyTschej »

What you are talking about is fraud, but that has nothing to do with the chosen way of payment. There are many criminals out there. I don't do eBay.
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