Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

General discussion about DSJ4.
SoBo
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Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by SoBo »

Jussi, i know that you a trust group of people(Gorisek), you work with but at the moment in which I am writing this it is impossible to play online, because something has changed with the winds you don't answer. Now the people you work with (Karciarz) doesn't play Online, because finding any W'R wind is nearly impossible, so he promotes a cheat engine on his live stream, which finds him the best wind. It's fun to watch and you as the owner, continue to promote dishonesty on the internet with them. When will you start listening to other people?

And don't answer me it's a script ......... Thanks
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Patryk Szajer
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Re: Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by Patryk Szajer »

Ok SoBo,

I'm not Jussi but i know few things about programs and cheats. I'm not gonna talk about reportedly broken winds or other stuff like that. I'm gonna break down to you why program/script that Tomasz is ussing is not a cheat with simple definition of those words. "Cheating in video games involves a video game player using various methods to create an advantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier." In short what Tomasz is using doesnt give him an advantage beyond normal gamplay. While yes it makes it easier because you dont need to click constantly through randomly set winds for few or more minutes, You can find the same wind so in the long run it doesn't give any advantage, it will take longer or shorter depending on your luck, wich im not going to discuss becouse winds are luck factor, a random generated value that determins your wind. Now just because Cheat Engine is used in the proces to use the program/script doesn't imidiatly make it an cheat. It doesn't affect your luck neither the strengh of the wind. You just can't do that. Those are hard in game values you can't really change(if you would the replay's will most likely not work).

Now saying second part. "which finds him the best wind." now that's a stupid take. It's like saying that by just searching manualy for the best wind you are cheating. No it doesn't work that way. What the program does it just reapets the proces you would be doing manualy just. There fore it's a script:"A set of commands that are executed by the operating system or application". In this case the script is linked to the mouse moving it into the position and clicking the buttons for you so you dont need to do it. It doesnt magicly increase your luck or makes in game values beter for you. That's not how script's work.

Now you said "don't answer me it's a script" but what other answer you want. Another Jussi answer that he didnt change winds? Explenetion to why Tomasz is cheating, if he is clearly not doing anything to give him an advantage? Removal of all his record's beacouse he was able to use the wind he got?
SoBo
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Re: Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by SoBo »

I will not argue with you, "using any cheating tools is strictly forbidden and will results penramet ban, lets keep the game fair", enough ? any attempt to cheat is worse than trying to defend it, before you write anything think if it makes sense, the owner he does not support this, so respect honesty be it Offline or Online.Simple rules? for me of course yes .................................
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Patryk Szajer
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Re: Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by Patryk Szajer »

Ok after some reading and more thorough re-search it breaks one terms of licens in the game by using the cheat engine. But so does gibbon being and exploit giving a player using it an advantage over player jumping normaly. So yes my mistake i didnt do enough reaserch on my part. So it's really up to Jussi what he thinks of it.
Tom2
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Re: Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by Tom2 »

Nice try, SoBo :D That's not even close to being a cheat, but yeah, why not, go for it, maybe I'll get punished for... yeah, that's a good question. For what should I be punished?

But let's start from the beginning. First sentence, and you're already lying, SoBo.
SoBo wrote:this it is impossible to play online, because something has changed with the winds you don't answer.
"you don't answer"? :lol: Look, are you seriously blind or what? viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8097&p=80574#p80574
Jussi Koskela wrote:@Sobo: There are no changes to wind conditions or their randomness. Everything is just how it has always been.
Pretty much in this topic was explained by Patryk, I'll add only few more sentences to that. Yes, it's true that this script uses Cheat Engine in a small piece. But to be honest with you, I didn't even have to use CE into this. It's only a small addition, which makes sure the script stops when the right gate on the right hill is found. I could've implemented the same thing without cheating tools, for instance using OCR (optical character recognition), it would just take a bit more time. And I doubt anyone would be ever complaining about that. It would be equivalent.

That tool was never designed to cheat inside the game. It's just asking the computer to do the same thing that we usually do, the only difference is that it obviously does the job faster. You don't get any better wind from that. You still have to jump sometimes even more than 1000 times to get a World Record, if you watched mine records, or many other people's records carefully.

Moreover, you don't even have to run CE to make this work, instead you can also look at the computer all the time and manually stop the script when you find the interesting wind conditions. It's equivalent. CE (or OCR, had I done it in the future) only makes you avoid staring at the computer during the whole process, and that's it. Is it seriously a cheat? I don't think so, I've seen many worse cases.

TL:DR (Summary);

That tool was never designed to cheat inside the game. It's not wind editor, it's not gravity editor, neither it is flying style editor (which was the main cause of that "using any cheating tools is strictly forbidden and will results penrament ban, lets keep the game fair" message). The whole thing was inspired by already existing macros which generated jumpers in the fastest possible way (there was a clip on Youtube, from many years ago, with A4 Tech x747 mouse and dedicated software with a built-in macro to do the thing). This tool only makes you get to the desired conditions faster, saves your eyes from staring at the computer for several minutes and your fingers from clicking all the time, and saves you some unnecessary time for searching the wind, instead of jumping. You still get the same random winds and gates. I don't modify any value inside the game, I just read two values which are visible and could've been equivalently implemented by OCR (optical character reading). You can't say the same thing about other tools.
Last edited by Tom2 on 29 Sep 2021, 15:29, edited 8 times in total.
DSJ3 TL: 7755.36m (#39), peak: 1325 (#490)
DSJ4 TL: 3550.97m (#3), online: 3506.29m (#11), peak: 1942 (#5)

DSJ3 PB: 318.88m (#19)
DSJ4 PB: 242.88m (#2)
SoBo
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Re: Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by SoBo »

I will not read this, I don't know what you wrote there cheater for me is rubbish, and you are.I am waiting for a owner response,not yours.As you always wrote book,and im not really going to read it.
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Jussi Koskela
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Re: Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by Jussi Koskela »

Using any external tools to search good winds does not sound fair to me. Please refrain from doing that.
Tom2
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Re: Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by Tom2 »

Jussi Koskela wrote: 26 Sep 2021, 17:25 Using any external tools to search good winds does not sound fair to me. Please refrain from doing that.
Fine. If this is a problem, I definitely can refrain from doing that. Every record hunting since now will be transparent on my Youtube channel. No difference for me to be honest. Clicking, not clicking, it's just a time-saver, nothing more than that. That's similar case to windsearching in online, where people kept skipping hills, leaving and re-entering the server.
DSJ3 TL: 7755.36m (#39), peak: 1325 (#490)
DSJ4 TL: 3550.97m (#3), online: 3506.29m (#11), peak: 1942 (#5)

DSJ3 PB: 318.88m (#19)
DSJ4 PB: 242.88m (#2)
Dangerous Dave
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Re: Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by Dangerous Dave »

How about we address the actual problem instead, which is the absolutely ridiculous way of getting the "correct" wind conditions? Clicking on buttons in a menu over and over again, wasting many minutes, even hours of the player's time that he/she could instead use to actually PLAY the game is extremely stupid and unheard of in most other games.
Of course, the people who have a little too much free time on their hands and don't have a problem with wasting days of their life by repeatedly clicking on buttons will disagree with me.
Xinitiao
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Re: Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by Xinitiao »

Especially as there is literally no way of policing if someone uses a program to find winds quickly or uses a method for saving and reusing the best wind conditions which was mentioned sometime ago on the forum.
The DSJ4 improvement of making hill record replays public was a great step forward in keeping the records fair, now the next step should be a dedicated record hunting mode.
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RZYMDZIO
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Re: Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by RZYMDZIO »

Jussi Koskela wrote: 26 Sep 2021, 17:25 Using any external tools to search good winds does not sound fair to me. Please refrain from doing that.
OK, good to hear your opinion about this tool. But what about jumps and records which was jumped with using this? I want be fair, I would like to hear another players opinion and I can delete some of my records obtained with windsearching script.
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SoBo
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Re: Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by SoBo »

In my opinion, 95% of Offline players are using "programs" to search for winds, or bundles of millions Ski Jumpers, because they are too lazy to take the time,be honest on the internet and of course I won't change it.Deleting these records yours or others will not change anything, unless someone uses the program the wind gives him constant at 2.4, but that's another story.As everyone knows,i don't like Tom and I don't hide it ,i don't like Slęczka, it is also a fact, they work with Jussi and they know there's a problem with the wind, but they laugh at the people who report it i have nice fun.I would never write so Karciarz is cheating, for no reason he knows well that there are no winds, whether it is Offline or Online,and laughing at me uses itself "Outer" wind finder, it shows on Live and still knowing that it doesn't make sense to play without it, did not report the Owner there is such a problem, but he decides to get past him somehow, and those who play Online then let them tire out, this is the peasant's line of reasoning.I hope now that Jussi will look at the problem with the wind, and none of you will be must have used that crap and players will return to the Online servers.
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Tom2
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Re: Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by Tom2 »

RZYMDZIO wrote: 27 Sep 2021, 14:35 OK, good to hear your opinion about this tool. But what about jumps and records which was jumped with using this? I want be fair, I would like to hear another players opinion and I can delete some of my records obtained with windsearching script.
It's pointless, because even with that script, you still find the same winds you would normally find with standard clicking procedure. As Patryk already explained:

Patryk Szajer wrote: Now just because Cheat Engine is used in the proces to use the program/script doesn't imidiatly make it an cheat. It doesn't affect your luck neither the strengh of the wind. You just can't do that. Those are hard in game values you can't really change(if you would the replay's will most likely not work).
It's not a wind editor. It doesn't change anything inside your jumps. It's just a faster and more efficient way to search already existing winds in this game. You still have only one chance to jump in some specific, randomly generated wind conditions. It's simply a time-saver, to make record hunting process way more friendly to players. It's no news that this game needs a dedicated record hunting mode, it was said many times before.
DSJ3 TL: 7755.36m (#39), peak: 1325 (#490)
DSJ4 TL: 3550.97m (#3), online: 3506.29m (#11), peak: 1942 (#5)

DSJ3 PB: 318.88m (#19)
DSJ4 PB: 242.88m (#2)
Tom2
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Re: Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by Tom2 »

Tom wrote:It's just a faster and more efficient way to search already existing winds in this game.
The same case still goes for online mode. Since you can't re-enter servers earlier than 2 minutes (and you can't totally skip a jump, since it detects you are AFK and kicks you out of the game), there are players who skip jumps with bad winds (when jumping alone or in no-rating servers) by either:

1. Pushing jumper from the gate and not making a takeoff, which usually ends with a jump around 20-30m
2. Pushing jumper from the gate and making a takeoff at inrun, which obviously results in 0m jump

Both methods are also time-savers, bad wind skippers and make you get to the desired conditions faster. In one thing, SoBo is right. People are in a way lazy, and there will be always some way to make some processes easier than usual.
Last edited by Tom2 on 29 Sep 2021, 15:29, edited 2 times in total.
DSJ3 TL: 7755.36m (#39), peak: 1325 (#490)
DSJ4 TL: 3550.97m (#3), online: 3506.29m (#11), peak: 1942 (#5)

DSJ3 PB: 318.88m (#19)
DSJ4 PB: 242.88m (#2)
RZYMDZIO
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Re: Cheating being promoted by Karciarz

Post by RZYMDZIO »

Tom2 wrote: 27 Sep 2021, 15:41
Tom wrote:It's just a faster and more efficient way to search already existing winds in this game.
The same case still goes for online mode. Since you can't re-enter servers earlier than 2 minutes (and you can't totally skip a jump, since it detects you are AFK and kicks you out of the game), there are players who skip jumps with bad winds (when jumping alone or in no-rating servers) by either:

1. Pushing jumper from the gate and not making a takeoff, which usually ends with a jump around 20-30m (SoBo's best in-game friend, Mariusz Paweł favorite method, and don't understand me wrong - I don't even blame him for that)
2. Pushing jumper from the gate and making a takeoff at inrun, which obviously results in 0m jump

Both methods are also time-savers, bad wind skippers and make you get to the desired conditions faster. In one thing, SoBo is right. People are in a way lazy, and there will be always some way to make some processes easier than usual.
But you don't have to use Cheat Engine for windsearching online ;)
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