To Jussi (technical questions)

General discussion about DSJ4.
Mariusz Paweł
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To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Mariusz Paweł »

As you don't reply by email ( which you used to do) I will ask again here maybe I won't be ignored. When will the hills that were changed from your official hills to the new ones be uploaded to the mediamond site? If yes, when can we expect it, if not, we would also like to know why.

Second thing, are you going to make any changes regarding scores, or is it going to stay like it is now - one big circus - where for example someone jumps 100m and is in the lead, another person makes the same jump and is in 15th place with a difference (in scores) of 3 points? How is it possible that jumping on the K-Point we often get marks of 5x20, while reaching or exceeding the HS-Point we get marks from 17.5-20? In real jumping it is impossible, as well as such a difference at the same distances here in DSJ :). I would also like to hear a definitive message from you.

The third comment is about the waiting, did you introduce the 5s for the test or to have peace of mind from the players? As things stand, it hasn't affected anything apart from reducing the duration of tournaments.

In conclusion for me as a player who has dedicated a huge amount of time to this game the answers to the above questions are important because looking at what happens during tournaments I am seriously considering whether to extend my online subscription further and be like most (veterans) offline when I only have time.

Mariusz Paweł [POL]
RZYMDZIO
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by RZYMDZIO »

Your message perfectly shows the current realities of DSJ 4. It shouldn't look like that
Jussi Koskela
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Jussi Koskela »

1. I don't have plans to replace the official hills with 3rd party hills on the website's hill records lists. The third party hills are subject to change and the set of hills used in the online World Cup is also changing, so defining which third party hills and which versions of them would be counted towards total length / cup score is not so straightforward.

2. Length of jump is not considered as a judging criteria: a beautiful jump to K-point should get equal style points as a beautiful jump to HS point. The landing may not be as smooth at HS point or there might be deviation due to included randomness. If you post some example replays I can check how many points they get for the takeoff, flight and landing and what's the effect of randomness.

3. I changed the time limit to 5 seconds speed up the pace of the online game. The game is not supposed to be 100% deterministic with regards the style points or the wind conditions.
he10th3r310
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by he10th3r310 »

I agree with removing old list and archiving it like in DSJ3. But the time is not yet, because there is still something to do to allow everyone equal chance to competite. For example gibbons should be removed and also I support what someone recently thought about - record hunt mode. It's not nice to click 2 hours before you find conditions. Your clicking hand suffers from that (I got painful infection of it years ago) and also some people have so slow pc that it takes a while to load it even once, if there are hundreds of jumpers. A new chance should be given to all people, including new comers. When all updates are done, a completely new hill records list should also be presented. Please, think about it.

Meanwhile, why not to add total length/cup scores for 3rd party hills only ingame beside the records? https://imgur.com/a/PxtxYF9
DSJ2 Total Length: 5438,88m
DSJ3 Total Length: 7825,25m
DSJ4 Total Lenght: 3560,25m (offline)

Combined: 16824.38m

I'm a retired player. I won't jump more competitive jumps, but I will anyway support the game future development as I can.
Jussi Koskela
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Jussi Koskela »

he10th3r310 wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 17:00 Meanwhile, why not to add total length/cup scores for 3rd party hills only ingame beside the records? https://imgur.com/a/PxtxYF9
That's also a question of DB performance. Processing aggregate results is much slower than just listing the best results on a single hill.
Mariusz Paweł
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Mariusz Paweł »

Jussi Koskela wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 16:16 1. I don't have plans to replace the official hills with 3rd party hills on the website's hill records lists. The third party hills are subject to change and the set of hills used in the online World Cup is also changing, so defining which third party hills and which versions of them would be counted towards total length / cup score is not so straightforward.

2. Length of jump is not considered as a judging criteria: a beautiful jump to K-point should get equal style points as a beautiful jump to HS point. The landing may not be as smooth at HS point or there might be deviation due to included randomness. If you post some example replays I can check how many points they get for the takeoff, flight and landing and what's the effect of randomness.

3. I changed the time limit to 5 seconds speed up the pace of the online game. The game is not supposed to be 100% deterministic with regards the style points or the wind conditions.

1) So in summary, the hills that are currently at the tournaments (35) selected by us in the voting will never be officially on mediamond as WR/TL? If so, bring back the old hills for flying (planica, kulm, oberstdorf ) - why should we jump on the new ones if this will never come into effect on the site. That way there is no offline/online motivation to fight for those stats.

2) A lot of people subscribe to what I've been writing for a few months recently at the nationals 1 player jumped 233m / 229.5 - the other player 229 / 229.5. and the former was in 3rd place and the latter won. The same thing I wrote you in the example I jump 100m I am 15th someone jumps 100m and is on the podium with 98-99m between us. It's totally illogical how you can lose 3 points for the same distance on the scores, where you jump nicely with telemark for HS and you get 18.5/19 and someone lucky gets only 20. I can send you some screenshots with that examples from site dsjtournaments, but what I wrote here should make the situation clear.

3. Unfortunately at the moment tournaments are won by people who somehow get mostly marks 20 jumping the same distance as others apart from waiting.

Mariusz Paweł [POL]
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Mariusz Paweł »

he10th3r310 wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 17:00 I agree with removing old list and archiving it like in DSJ3. But the time is not yet, because there is still something to do to allow everyone equal chance to competite. For example gibbons should be removed and also I support what someone recently thought about - record hunt mode. It's not nice to click 2 hours before you find conditions. Your clicking hand suffers from that (I got painful infection of it years ago) and also some people have so slow pc that it takes a while to load it even once, if there are hundreds of jumpers. A new chance should be given to all people, including new comers. When all updates are done, a completely new hill records list should also be presented. Please, think about it.

Meanwhile, why not to add total length/cup scores for 3rd party hills only ingame beside the records? https://imgur.com/a/PxtxYF9
How do you want to remove the gibbon if it is the result of your hand's dynamic movement at the settings you have set for yourself - it's a bit paradoxical. One moves slower at impact so it is less dynamic and therefore loses 0.1- 1m over the entire distance of the jump to me or other top players. Looking at some replays I can immediately see why he jumped shorter (take-off, flight style, wind power). So I see no reason to change something you produce with your hand. Some players move the mouse 1 cm for a jump, others sometimes 10 cm, so everyone jumps shorter or further.

Mariusz Paweł [POL]
Jussi Koskela
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Jussi Koskela »

2) I need replay files to analyze what causes the difference. The amount of extra movement is also penalized, so e.g. using gibbon style may reduce the style points (there is certain amount of extra movement that is tolerated).
Xinitiao
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Xinitiao »

Jussi Koskela wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 18:24 2) I need replay files to analyze what causes the difference. The amount of extra movement is also penalized, so e.g. using gibbon style may reduce the style points (there is certain amount of extra movement that is tolerated).
I'm very curious what do the judges look at in DSJ, if that's not a secret :)
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Mariusz Paweł
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Mariusz Paweł »

Jussi Koskela wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 18:24 2) I need replay files to analyze what causes the difference. The amount of extra movement is also penalized, so e.g. using gibbon style may reduce the style points (there is certain amount of extra movement that is tolerated).

Jussi it's not about attacking each other with arguments - that's not my purpose of this offtopic, is it possible to increase the scores when jumping on HS that they will only be in the 19-20 marks, unless you have some idea about the fact that a hill has HS97 e.g. Rasnov and makes a 100m jump with an early landing and gets 18-18.5 for the landing, and someone makes a jump practically identical to me and gets 19.5-20?

Mariusz Paweł [POL]
Xinitiao
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Xinitiao »

Mariusz Paweł wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 19:07
Jussi Koskela wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 18:24 2) I need replay files to analyze what causes the difference. The amount of extra movement is also penalized, so e.g. using gibbon style may reduce the style points (there is certain amount of extra movement that is tolerated).

Jussi it's not about attacking each other with arguments - that's not my purpose of this offtopic, is it possible to increase the scores when jumping on HS that they will only be in the 19-20 marks, unless you have some idea about the fact that a hill has HS97 e.g. Rasnov and makes a 100m jump with an early landing and gets 18-18.5 for the landing, and someone makes a jump practically identical to me and gets 19.5-20?

Mariusz Paweł [POL]
So you want gibbon to give you a bigger advantage just because you are good at it?
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rubinot42
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by rubinot42 »

Mariusz is right. And I noticed that as well. Land rating algorhitm needs to be changed, that's all.
Mariusz Paweł
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Mariusz Paweł »

Xinitiao I am not talking to you so don't direct any question in my way, I only write with the game owner (Jussi Koskela) and normal players (TOP).

Mariusz Paweł [POL]
Xinitiao
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Xinitiao »

Mariusz Paweł wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 19:07 it's not about attacking each other with arguments - that's not my purpose of this offtopic,
Mariusz Paweł wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 19:31 Xinitiao I am not talking to you so don't direct any question in my way, I only write with the game owner (Jussi Koskela) and normal players (TOP).
Well then please stop wasting Jussi's time with writing nonsense things about the game. The purpose of this forum is mainly to have serious discussions about DSJ.

Thanks for not calling me a normal player though - it means I'm exceptional :D
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Maciejo-96 »

rubinot42 wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 19:24 Land rating algorhitm needs to be changed, that's all.
In DSJ4 it works good. Judges also look on jumper's behaviour meanwhile flight. Also I want to tell that DSJ3 wasn't better in that case, it was even worse - style marks were much more differential, sometimes even 2.5-3 points even with telemark.
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