To Jussi (technical questions)

General discussion about DSJ4.
Jussi Koskela
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Jussi Koskela »

Mariusz Paweł wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 19:07
Jussi Koskela wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 18:24 2) I need replay files to analyze what causes the difference. The amount of extra movement is also penalized, so e.g. using gibbon style may reduce the style points (there is certain amount of extra movement that is tolerated).

Jussi it's not about attacking each other with arguments - that's not my purpose of this offtopic, is it possible to increase the scores when jumping on HS that they will only be in the 19-20 marks, unless you have some idea about the fact that a hill has HS97 e.g. Rasnov and makes a 100m jump with an early landing and gets 18-18.5 for the landing, and someone makes a jump practically identical to me and gets 19.5-20?

Mariusz Paweł [POL]
Early landing is something that gets penalized in style points, too. There are many factors that the judging formula takes into account, so replays are the only way for me to know what part of the formula causes the differences. The game can't and shouldn't award anybody with 19-20 marks just for reaching the HS point. In real life the judges may be forgiving for weaker landing / flying style if the jump is very very long but that's not based on any rules - and is difficult to replicate "realistically" in DSJ4 as the game has no idea what would be a distance for an extraordinary jump.
he10th3r310
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by he10th3r310 »

I know there are much challenges trying to remove possibility to create gibbon, because it is much more part of physics than landing bug was. I'm not pro with this tech so I can't give any advice. I would imagine that reducing chance for elastic takeoff also reduces any other jumper animation ingame and makes it much more DSJ3 like which is maybe not good as it kind of reverses the development of the game. And that's not what we want to see

The only reason why I would want this to be removed is that it's not realistic. You don't see a jumper shake like that at takeoff. It's not what you want to happen in real life. It will decrease your chances for a good jump if that happened, also it would be dangerous. Only skis fluctuate during takeoffs, not jumper. You want to have as calm movement as possible to your optimal flying position
DSJ2 Total Length: 5438,88m
DSJ3 Total Length: 7825,25m
DSJ4 Total Lenght: 3560,25m (offline)

Combined: 16824.38m

I'm a retired player. I won't jump more competitive jumps, but I will anyway support the game future development as I can.
Mariusz Paweł
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Mariusz Paweł »

he10th3r310 wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 19:58 I know there are much challenges trying to remove possibility to create gibbon, because it is much more part of physics than landing bug was. I'm not pro with this tech so I can't give any advice. I would imagine that reducing chance for elastic takeoff also reduces any other jumper animation ingame and makes it much more DSJ3 like which is maybe not good as it kind of reverses the development of the game. And that's not what we want to see

The only reason why I would want this to be removed is that it's not realistic. You don't see a jumper shake like that at takeoff. It's not what you want to happen in real life. It will decrease your chances for a good jump if that happened, also it would be dangerous. Only skis fluctuate during takeoffs, not jumper. You want to have as calm movement as possible to your optimal flying position
Apparently you don't watch enough real ski jumping, because there the skis vibrate after the kick and in the game just jumper, but the idea is the same - dynamics. As I wrote you need to know what and how to fly as we do. I see a lot of mistakes of players who have this 1m less, so there is no objection.

Mariusz Paweł [POL]
Last edited by Mariusz Paweł on 21 Apr 2021, 21:09, edited 1 time in total.
Mariusz Paweł
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Mariusz Paweł »

Jussi Koskela wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 19:47
Mariusz Paweł wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 19:07
Jussi Koskela wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 18:24 2) I need replay files to analyze what causes the difference. The amount of extra movement is also penalized, so e.g. using gibbon style may reduce the style points (there is certain amount of extra movement that is tolerated).

Jussi it's not about attacking each other with arguments - that's not my purpose of this offtopic, is it possible to increase the scores when jumping on HS that they will only be in the 19-20 marks, unless you have some idea about the fact that a hill has HS97 e.g. Rasnov and makes a 100m jump with an early landing and gets 18-18.5 for the landing, and someone makes a jump practically identical to me and gets 19.5-20?

Mariusz Paweł [POL]
Early landing is something that gets penalized in style points, too. There are many factors that the judging formula takes into account, so replays are the only way for me to know what part of the formula causes the differences. The game can't and shouldn't award anybody with 19-20 marks just for reaching the HS point. In real life the judges may be forgiving for weaker landing / flying style if the jump is very very long but that's not based on any rules - and is difficult to replicate "realistically" in DSJ4 as the game has no idea what would be a distance for an extraordinary jump.


--https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

Val die fiemme HS 106 - you call that fair? That a jumper who takes 2nd place has only a 0.5m shorter jump than the leader and loses 4.5 points on his score?

--https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... mple_1.png

2 image Bischo HS 78 - here 0.5m more gives 1.2 points, so on the whole meter we have 2.4 points and you can see the result of these marks.

--https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... mple_2.png

Next picture the same distances but the results of the notes are huge :)

There are many such examples from just the game or from the site dsjtournaments, if it is fair to gain such a difference on the same distances and sometimes even someone jumps further and loses, it gives me an answer whether it is worth taking part in tournaments or just buy a subscription - I write this as a person who always jumps seriously at a good level and such differences in my opinion are illogical.

Mariusz Paweł [POL]
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Maciejo-96 »

Mariusz Paweł wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 20:57 Apparently you don't watch enough real ski jumping, because there the skis vibrate after the kick and in the game just jumper
Exactly the same thing with skis behaviour is in DSJ4, so there is nothing to do with. It is 100% normal.

But well, if we are talking about 'gibbon' we know from this game, hips movements are completely unnatural - in real world, if jumper does it, he will 100% completely lose control and end his jump even with hitting a knoll by his head (it is also dependent on speed in moment of take-off, the bigger speed = the bigger risk that jumper will do front-flip). That's how physics works and should work in game where in assumption all movements are simulated accurately according to real world physics, as it is written on site.
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zhongguo
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by zhongguo »

Well. Firstly, gibbon is not part of ski jumping in anyway. And if it was then judges would take points off for that following their guidelines, art. 431.2.1. (can be found on FIS website, documents and from there ICR.)

There are some inconsistencies with judges, in real life I would never get 18.5x5 for a 110 meter jump in Kuusamo. But you can’t really say if judging is faulty by just presenting results. You can’t say what their landing was like, did they have stable flight, etc. You need to see the jump. What if the person who jumped further had a bad telemark, unstable landing or something similar. Is it unfair in that case too? I don’t think it is. You can again check art. 431 on ICR document for criteria on reduction of points. I haven’t experienced many issues about it, sometimes you have a deeper telemark (by this I mean a telemark where your butt is close to ground for a moment and telemark is not neat and tidy all the way), sometimes it’s more stable. Which one should give better score if the distance is same? Stable telemark, right?

:!: Long jump is not automatically beautiful jump and landing. :!:

Obviously and of course there is some room for improvement. But without video evidence it’s impossible to say if there is room for improvement on those situations Mariusz has described.
Mariusz Paweł
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Mariusz Paweł »

Maciejo-96 wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 21:24
Mariusz Paweł wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 20:57 Apparently you don't watch enough real ski jumping, because there the skis vibrate after the kick and in the game just jumper
Exactly the same thing with skis behaviour is in DSJ4, so there is nothing to do with. It is 100% normal.

But well, if we are talking about 'gibbon' we know from this game, hips movements are completely unnatural - in real world, if jumper does it, he will 100% completely lose control and end his jump even with hitting a knoll by his head (it is also dependent on speed in moment of take-off, the bigger speed = the bigger risk that jumper will do front-flip). That's how physics works and should work in game where in assumption all movements are simulated accurately according to real world physics, as it is written on site.
But what did you expect from a game from 2011? Here even a normal jump does not resemble a real one. And it will never be like that, because it's hard to reproduce it perfectly. In my opinion, of course, the inrun speeds and results are fair, there are no big differences, and if there are, they are based on the ideal jump, which consists of a number of factors - and you have to know what and how to achieve it, and I asked the normal questions which are the pillar of online playability, i.e. when will the records and TL of the selected 35 hills ( all hills from a tournament ) be shown on the mediamond website, because that's what this game is about - competition.
It's logical that players at level 1700-2000 know how to jump to get those scores (19-20) and the differences are drastic not in distances but in scores.
And as for waiting I don't have to explain to you, you are a good example of how it can change the order of places.

Mariusz Paweł [POL]
he10th3r310
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by he10th3r310 »

If there was a chance to spare elastic ski movement, because irl too skis are like that. But jumper body should be a bit more tense at takeoff. That probably just would destroy jumping physics too so it's probably not possible.
DSJ2 Total Length: 5438,88m
DSJ3 Total Length: 7825,25m
DSJ4 Total Lenght: 3560,25m (offline)

Combined: 16824.38m

I'm a retired player. I won't jump more competitive jumps, but I will anyway support the game future development as I can.
Jussi Koskela
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Re: To Jussi (technical questions)

Post by Jussi Koskela »

Couple of ad hominem posts removed. Locking topic.
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