Control system in DSJ4

General discussion about DSJ4.
pajkul
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Control system in DSJ4

Post by pajkul »

Dear Jussi,
I was always wondering how the new jump control system works. If I pull the mouse down, the skis go up, and if I pull it up, the skis go down, meaning the only thing I have the influence on during the flight is the placement of skis, not the jumper's body. Am I right? And the body angles have somewhat fixed values, don't they? When I do nothing after taking off, the jumpers fall down and rotates backward, the skis go up then. Is it the result of the physics system impelemented in the game and can be considered as realistic?
Jussi Koskela
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Post by Jussi Koskela »

The mouse movement affects the ankle, pelvis and spine angles (mostly the ankle). The ratio between the change of these angles is fixed by me since it would be too difficult to adjust all of them separately. The rest comes from the physics engine.
In DSJ3 there were quite a lot of "magic" forces which stabilized the flight but in DSJ4 you are "up yours" (as a famous ski jumper once said :))
EyTschej
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Post by EyTschej »

Pajkul, you've put pretty good in words what I'm experiencing as well. There doesn't seem to be any control over the jumper anymore, only a slight control chance of the skis, which is my biggest disappointment so far. Reminds me too much of RTL skijumping when it also was basically only about taking off at the right moment, watching the jumper fly (without having actual control over him) and then pressing the mouse in time for the landing. I still believe that the new physics engine is better and more realistic, but the control system is worse than in DSJ3. The best result would be if the control systems of DSJ3 and DSJ4 met somewhere in the middle. I've actually already stopped playing the current beta version of DSJ4 because it's too boring when it's basically only about the right moment for take-off and nothing else. DSJ3 is still more fun because you get to have control throughout the whole jump ... except for those annoying side-movements ...
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pajkul
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Post by pajkul »

I'm not saying this is in any way negative. Meaning if you want a realistic ski jumping game, then you would have to control every single part of the jumper body, which is impossible with a single axis mouse I'm afraid. I perfectly like the game.

update: 246,5m - long jump by Evensen! Hoping for 250+ tomorrow. I think that in perfect conditions, with a low inrun speed but strong head wind on the bottom of the hill 255m is possible to stand, even though it may be somewhat problematic. Anything over 255 is not possible.
Last edited by pajkul on 12 Feb 2011, 00:37, edited 1 time in total.
Jussi Koskela
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Post by Jussi Koskela »

@EyTschej
The basic difference between controlling the ski jumper in DSJ3 and DSJ4 is that DSJ3 lacks the moment of inertia calculations in the ski jumper's movement. In DSJ3 the skis are fixed to the correct position and you move directly the overal body angle with the mouse with no effect of the slowness of mass. In reality this would not be possible since the skis are much lighter than the body of the ski jumper.

In DSJ4 there are no such fixed constraints: the ski jumper changes his body posture according to the mouse movements (taking the moments of inertia into account) and the rest is physics like in reality. I am not willing to introduce DSJ3-like constraints at the expense of reduced reality. Otherwise DSJ4 would be only a clone of DSJ3 (which is, of course, a very good game, too :D).
EyTschej
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Post by EyTschej »

Jussi, you still need to do quite some tweaking anyway, because right now, the skis feel like feathers in the wind. You've tried real jumping yourself, you should know how heavy jumping skis actually are. The way it's now, it just doesn't feel right. The skis in DSJ4 are much too soft. That's only for the skis, of course. I'm not talking about the jumper now, only the skis.

The jumper's angle towards the skis should not be as "control-able" as in DSJ3 - and I didn't say you should to this. What I said was that you need to find the "middle" in between DSJ3 and DSJ4, because the way DSJ4 is in beta 1, it's more like RTL skijumping and has lost part of what DSJ made so popular: Having realistic control over the jumper throughout the WHOLE jump, not just take-off and landing ;)

Maybe fixing mouse sensitivity might change the game experience already. You were obviously surprised that many players still had an over-sensitive mouse with 1.0, so I guess you were experiencing a different game experience while testing the controls and physics yourself. And the physics are basically fine - the bugged mouse sensitivity has no influence on that anyway. But the way many players can "control" their jumping in the current beta, is simply "not good" both in terms to realism and game experience. Let's see how this experience changes once we can control the jumper the way you intented us to ;)

And in regards to how complex the control system should be and how many aspects we can control: I still believe that side-controls should be added. The jumper often moves sideways in the air anyway ... and once he starts, he doesn't stop ... it's like ping pong! That was already one of the worst things about DSJ3 and I really hoped you had that fixed for DSJ4. In real skijumping, jumpers might take off a little twisted, but they react to that and correct their flying position. In DSJ, we don't have that option which is not good. Either, the jumper shouldn't get twisted sideways if it can't be corrected or please ... a little windows in the top-right corner, just like in Winter Games on the C64, making it possible to control the jumper sideways as well. ;)
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TehBaggins
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Post by TehBaggins »

Would it be possible to implement a possibility to remap the control axis? Especially with the new system it would be easier to make precise adjustments if I could move the mouse sideways in stead of up and down.
sunset_rider
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Post by sunset_rider »

First of all: Great work Jussi. New system allows veterans to start again without doing months of training during hours they don't have.

It's actually quite difficult for me beat and understand the new system. I mean, I understand how it should work, but I don't get it. Like EyTschej said the Skis feel somehow soft and there's no possible way to use the jumper's upper aprt of the body to stabilize him again.

What I mean was very well expressed yesterday in Vikersund by the first jumpers scoring only 100m or so. In DSJ4 they all had to crash into the snow.
I played DSJ for 11 years, 9 years with the intent to deliver really good results. So, it's no major surprise that I encounter problems learning the new technique.



Anyway, it would be great (from my point of view) to offer a really fine tutorial to new DSJ4 players with youtube vids and such stuff. Some sort of "flying school". I suppose that otherwise many people will quit the game after some hours and that would truly be a mess.

And: Please rethink the idea of moving the jumper as well. (The new technique feelds quite nice, please don't discard it. Another DSJ3 with same system would only be a graphical update.) Could be up/down keyboard keys. Of course I couldn't test it, but i'm quite sure that it would improve the controlling.

If you already implemented the movement of the jumper: I would love to see a beta with both techniques choosable optionally. So, you would clearly see what people prefer.
doubleffect
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Post by doubleffect »

New system allows veterans to start again without doing months of training during hours they don't have.
I'm of different opinion. Switching from DSJ3 to DSJ4 maybe isn't such a big deal compared to switching from DSJ2 to DSJ3, yet with my first jumps, I find DSJ4 quite hard to understand at the beginning. If you take off too early, you're always going to fall on your face or frontflip. It's really annoying. It took me some time to get used to DSJ4 to get good jumps. It's a good thing there are settings in Practice so you can train in various conditions, however with tailwind (360 degrees) I hardly manage to get to the K-point. With 180 degrees it's quite easy to get a length over K-point unless you take off too early. If you take off too late, your jump is just shorter. Also, it's quite hard to get that sense of repeatability during takeoffs so you don't fall on your face.

If there are going to be hills, where you can theoretically jump over 300 meteres (and I think it's alright for them to be in the final release if it's now possible to jump over 250m in real life with inrun speed of 100 km/h), it'll be hard to get such a length, I think. I just saw jumps with wind hacking and I wonder how it'll work on flying hills.

Anyway, the game was never supposed to be easy. I've never been a master of DSJ, I was decent but I could jump 314m in Slovenia without using the bug (DSJ3). DSJ4 seems to be harder. But I'm looking forward to see the full release and its contents.
DSJ3 Personal best: 314.0m (Slovenia)
DSJ4 Personal best: 196.5m (Planica) (what a great jump that was!...)
Wolf
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Post by Wolf »

EyTschej wrote:Jussi, you still need to do quite some tweaking anyway, because right now, the skis feel like feathers in the wind. You've tried real jumping yourself, you should know how heavy jumping skis actually are. The way it's now, it just doesn't feel right. The skis in DSJ4 are much too soft. That's only for the skis, of course. I'm not talking about the jumper now, only the skis.

The jumper's angle towards the skis should not be as "control-able" as in DSJ3 - and I didn't say you should to this. What I said was that you need to find the "middle" in between DSJ3 and DSJ4, because the way DSJ4 is in beta 1, it's more like RTL skijumping and has lost part of what DSJ made so popular: Having realistic control over the jumper throughout the WHOLE jump, not just take-off and landing ;)

Maybe fixing mouse sensitivity might change the game experience already. You were obviously surprised that many players still had an over-sensitive mouse with 1.0, so I guess you were experiencing a different game experience while testing the controls and physics yourself. And the physics are basically fine - the bugged mouse sensitivity has no influence on that anyway. But the way many players can "control" their jumping in the current beta, is simply "not good" both in terms to realism and game experience. Let's see how this experience changes once we can control the jumper the way you intented us to ;)

And in regards to how complex the control system should be and how many aspects we can control: I still believe that side-controls should be added. The jumper often moves sideways in the air anyway ... and once he starts, he doesn't stop ... it's like ping pong! That was already one of the worst things about DSJ3 and I really hoped you had that fixed for DSJ4. In real skijumping, jumpers might take off a little twisted, but they react to that and correct their flying position. In DSJ, we don't have that option which is not good. Either, the jumper shouldn't get twisted sideways if it can't be corrected or please ... a little windows in the top-right corner, just like in Winter Games on the C64, making it possible to control the jumper sideways as well. ;)
... skis are too soft ... ?! What do you write man ?! A jumper can still face you do not like ?! Can he do a game about ski jumping ?!
... I see that you lack a little imagination on the physics of spring ...
Wolf
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Post by Wolf »

TehBaggins wrote:Would it be possible to implement a possibility to remap the control axis? Especially with the new system it would be easier to make precise adjustments if I could move the mouse sideways in stead of up and down.


And why change something that is good ? :shock:
Wolf
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Post by Wolf »

doubleffect wrote:
New system allows veterans to start again without doing months of training during hours they don't have.
I'm of different opinion. Switching from DSJ3 to DSJ4 maybe isn't such a big deal compared to switching from DSJ2 to DSJ3, yet with my first jumps, I find DSJ4 quite hard to understand at the beginning. If you take off too early, you're always going to fall on your face or frontflip. It's really annoying. It took me some time to get used to DSJ4 to get good jumps. It's a good thing there are settings in Practice so you can train in various conditions, however with tailwind (360 degrees) I hardly manage to get to the K-point. With 180 degrees it's quite easy to get a length over K-point unless you take off too early. If you take off too late, your jump is just shorter. Also, it's quite hard to get that sense of repeatability during takeoffs so you don't fall on your face.

If there are going to be hills, where you can theoretically jump over 300 meteres (and I think it's alright for them to be in the final release if it's now possible to jump over 250m in real life with inrun speed of 100 km/h), it'll be hard to get such a length, I think. I just saw jumps with wind hacking and I wonder how it'll work on flying hills.

Anyway, the game was never supposed to be easy. I've never been a master of DSJ, I was decent but I could jump 314m in Slovenia without using the bug (DSJ3). DSJ4 seems to be harder. But I'm looking forward to see the full release and its contents.


In my opinion, based on Beta 1, DSJ 4 is a very realistic game, you can see that Jussi has put a lot of work in the physics of the jump. And the fact that he jumps a little differently than previous versions, it's just great advantage of the game ! Only people who like to go to the sitter will be complaining ! To work and train ! :wink:
TehBaggins
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Post by TehBaggins »

Wolf wrote:And why change something that is good ? :shock:
Personal preference. I've tried to do this via external programs and I feel like I have much better control over the jump this way.

It also makes the game better for people with RSI-like symptoms, as you would have to lift your palm from your mousing surface to get an even motion with the current system, whereas with lateral movement it's literally in the flick of the wrist meaning the arm can rest comfortably during gameplay.

Another possibility would be possibility to use a gamepad or joystick, but I know that's harder still and would require a full revamp of the whole control system.
Grufugl
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Post by Grufugl »

EyTschej wrote:I've actually already stopped playing the current beta version of DSJ4 because it's too boring when it's basically only about the right moment for take-off and nothing else. DSJ3 is still more fun because you get to have control throughout the whole jump ... except for those annoying side-movements ...
You have stated this view on several occations, and I have to say I have a hard time grasping what you're talking about. Your experience is very different from mine. For me it's obvious when playing dsj4, that the possibility is there to control the whole flight, and learning how to do so is crucial for the result (the lenght you will achieve). Once I had got some control over the take off (stopped falling so much), I discovered that I had plenty to learn about the rest of the flight. Sure, it's different from dsj3, but to say you do not have any control throughout the whole jump sounds very strange to me.
The possibility for control is there. There can't be any doubt about that in my opinion. So maybe what you are really talking about is simply the visual representation of it? If not, I'd say it's all about practice and learning (and maybe forgetting the dsj3-technique). When ski flying hills are added, I am sure it will be only more obvious that what you do after take off is just as important in dsj4, and that the possibility for control is there.
There are visual details that could be improved, like the angle between jumper and skis, and how the landing looks if you study it in slow-motion in replays, but theese things are even so allready better than in dsj3, and are anyhow of little importance for the gameplay.
Wolf
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Post by Wolf »

TehBaggins wrote:
Wolf wrote:And why change something that is good ? :shock:
Personal preference. I've tried to do this via external programs and I feel like I have much better control over the jump this way.

It also makes the game better for people with RSI-like symptoms, as you would have to lift your palm from your mousing surface to get an even motion with the current system, whereas with lateral movement it's literally in the flick of the wrist meaning the arm can rest comfortably during gameplay.

Another possibility would be possibility to use a gamepad or joystick, but I know that's harder still and would require a full revamp of the whole control system.


I believe that this should not be changed. It is good as now.
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