Tailwind is simply NO FUN!

General discussion about DSJ3.
Thomasat
Posts: 20
Joined: 07 Feb 2007, 02:58
Location: Norway

Tailwind is simply NO FUN!

Post by Thomasat »

I've just started playing Deluxe Ski Jumping once again! :D
Much because of v1.7.0, but I didn't take that long before I remember why I stopped playing a while ago!

The thing is that I mostly play offline by me self, or with a buddy or two!
But mostly by myself.. The reason is because that's pretty much how I like it, playing online isn't that much fun when you are far from the level the other players are! When I preform one of my best jumps ever online, it will just result in something like a 4-5 place? Not really that much fun if you ask me.. I know it's simply me being a bad player, and I've got no problem with admitting that, and that's why I barley play online at all!

But the offline part of the game could need an "overhaul", the fact that when I play a full game, with 2x competitions in all hills I get this stupid 2-4m/s 40% of the time?!

Might be realistic, but not fun at all to be honest! It's okay when playing online, as everyone gets the hard conditions and it's therefore fair to everyone, but when playing offline with my fifteen jumpers it's not fun at all when one jumper get like 0m/s, and another one gets 4m/s tailwind within the same round in the same competition!

It's actually nagging me A LOT! Because it destroys everything I want from the game, there should be some option to let you at least disable the wind completely? That wont give players any advantages when it comes to setting hill records, as you wont have any chance doing that with 0m/s. At the same time those of us playing mostly offline can get the same conditions for every jumper! Might not be as realistic as in real-life, but much less annoying and much more fun! It's plain stupid watching one of my jumpers getting 3-4m/s upwind in the second round, jumping like 50meters longer than anyone else and watch the leader of the first round getting 1-2m/s tailwind and sustain no chance at all when it comes to defending his lead!

It's not fun at all playing offline with 15 jumpers in a hill when all you get is tailwind all the three rounds (qualifications, first and second round). Not even when it's about the same tailwind for everyone, it's simply no fun when you barley manage to get pass K-Point with any of my fifteen jumpers :(

I can sit playing like 3-4 hills non-stop with ease, but suddenly I get to Slovenia with 3-4m/s tailwind, no fun at all and mostly I will just quit the game before I even managed to get through the qualification round, because jumping with that much tailwind in a ski flying hill is just no fun at all! It's not that realistic either, because in the real world they would just give the jumpers a little more speed so they at least managed to get passed K-Point with ease. But when you get 3-4m/s tailwind in Slovenia in the game, you will just be stuck with your poor jumps not even making it past K-Point?!


There should really be added some options to these wind condition, at least let us disable it when playing offline? Or have some option making the conditions staying exactly the same all the competition through or something? Or simply let us choose before the competition starts what kind of wind conditions we want? Like making us being able to set something like "max wind: 0 - 4m/s.. "lowest wind: 0 - 3m/s".. direction: "random / tailwind / upwind / sidewind".

That would make the game much more enjoyable, at least for us playing 100% offline with multiply jumpers! I can't describe how frustrating it is when in 1 / 3 competitions there are always 1-3 of my 15 jumpers getting some insane much better wind conditions than the others? Or the other way, 1-3 of my 15 jumpers get ridiculously bad wind conditions compared to all the others! I just hate when the jumper I lead with after the first round sustain no chance whatsoever to win because of bad conditions in the last round! AAARRGHH!

Not to mention all the competitions with tailwind only, those are not fun to play at all. Having to jump 3x 15 jumps where like 90% of them are in tailwind only, making me barley able to reach the K-Point in just a few of my jumps. NOT FUN! I've seen Jussi have used "realistic weather conditions" as an excuse, but that isn't a valid excuse I'm afraid. Because in the real world, a jumper getting much worse conditions that some of the other jumpers, like the first couple of jumpers have had 1-2m/s upwind, then the next jumper getting 1-2m/s tailwind would have been pulled of and sit waiting for better condition, it's not realistic that some jumpers are getting 2-3m/s upwind, and some other 1-2m/s tailwind in the same competition?! Neither is it realistic that a competition is held with 3-4m/s tailwind without the speed being increased, there would never have been an entire competition where only 5% of the jumpers made it past the K-Point?

I can understand that more control of the wind conditions might make it easier for people to make world records etc.. But why not simply make the world records only being valid while playing online? So that a wind condition editor for offline usage wouldn't interfere with the records on Mediamond.fi?

Something simply has to be change, or this game is dead offline. Not fun playing by yourself, or with friends when the wind conditions behave like they do now, where we have no control or option when it comes to modifying it within something we could accept.


Don't get me wrong, it's a really good game! But hey! The offline part really needs something added when it comes to wind conditions!
Cvetko Stanisa
Posts: 27
Joined: 23 Jan 2007, 10:17
Location: Slovenia

Re: Tailwind is simply NO FUN!

Post by Cvetko Stanisa »

Total agree with you. By first versions of DSJ was a goal of the game to make game which is similar as real ski jumps. After detection of Sevo-bug all new veriosn get in total different (wrong) way. That's the real reason why a lot of perfect players have stop to play DSJ!

Yes, by real competition must all competiors have more or less similar conditions, or the rund is cancelled. Like you say if you play alone (offline) with about 40 players (like I), then have maybe only 8-9 players good wind but all other have wind from behind, from site - no chances to jump similar jump - no interesting, have nothig to do with reality!

Regards,
CS
Jussi Koskela
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Re: Tailwind is simply NO FUN!

Post by Jussi Koskela »

Cvetko Stanisa wrote:Total agree with you. By first versions of DSJ was a goal of the game to make game which is similar as real ski jumps. After detection of Sevo-bug all new veriosn get in total different (wrong) way. That's the real reason why a lot of perfect players have stop to play DSJ!
Sorry, but I really don't understand your point. The major changes since v1.4.0 include the online game mode, better cheat prevention, new hills, etc (see the full list). Doesn't sound like a reason for good players to stop playing the game. I know that many players who used tools to slowdown the game quitted when they couldn't use the tools any more, but I wouldn't say that it was a step backwards. The online gaming mode, on the otherhand, has now made it possible for the players to test their skills in real time in real competitions.
Cvetko Stanisa wrote: Yes, by real competition must all competiors have more or less similar conditions, or the rund is cancelled. Like you say if you play alone (offline) with about 40 players (like I), then have maybe only 8-9 players good wind but all other have wind from behind, from site - no chances to jump similar jump - no interesting, have nothig to do with reality!
So, the rounds should be cancelled in DSJ as well? Just kidding. :wink:
The behaviour of the wind is quite controversial matter. Some players enjoy jumping in differing wind conditions and some would always like to have perfect wind conditions for hill records crunching. I know that the wind changes in DSJ a bit more agressively than in reality, but changing the behaviour at this point would mean that we would have to reset the hill records once again, which wouldn't be nice at all.
onkelsmerte
Posts: 418
Joined: 14 Jan 2008, 18:34

Post by onkelsmerte »

Man i like it is now. unpredicable. You never know what you will get. if it was good winds all the time id quit in a second.
techman
Posts: 8
Joined: 04 Dec 2008, 19:38

Post by techman »

Simply have 3 online lists:

1st
Standard (as it is now)

2nd
Length with Points (you know what I mean, 19.5 etc added to length, dont know the exact word in english)

3rd
Length with no wind or perfect wind
Cvetko Stanisa
Posts: 27
Joined: 23 Jan 2007, 10:17
Location: Slovenia

Re: Tailwind is simply NO FUN!

Post by Cvetko Stanisa »

Jussi Koskela wrote: Sorry, but I really don't understand your point. The major changes since v1.4.0 include the online game mode, better cheat prevention, new hills, etc

So, the rounds should be cancelled in DSJ as well?
I know that the wind changes in DSJ a bit more agressively than in reality, but changing the behaviour at this point would mean that we would have to reset the hill records once again, which wouldn't be nice at all.
Don't worry, I'm out of the game - the major changes but not all! Find at home all our suggestion how to make better playability, control of jumper in phase of "fly" -really don't want discus about that here on forum!

AND WHY SHOULD BE ROUNDS NOT CANCELLED? - IS'NT THIS REALTY?
And yes, wind changes is to agressive. Try to play just one season (all hills) with 4 your freinds at home and with 30 "computer players" Just try and at the end of play ask your friends about experiences, ok? And then do the same with wind in DSJ2 and ask again! It's not important how good you are just how big luck with wind you have!
techman
Posts: 8
Joined: 04 Dec 2008, 19:38

Post by techman »

just how big luck with wind you have!
exact.
onkelsmerte
Posts: 418
Joined: 14 Jan 2008, 18:34

Post by onkelsmerte »

god. stop whining.
heathcliffe dyba
Posts: 92
Joined: 05 Mar 2008, 05:23
Location: Great Britain

Post by heathcliffe dyba »

lol so if its nothing to do with the skill of a player only the luck of the wind then we might as well pack up our bags right?

Dont be silly because in the online competition we all have the same wind and therefore all have equal opportunity to jump well it just depends how you jump. As Onkel stated he would not like the wind to be all perfect and hey guess what neither would I. You talk about reality and in reality the wind changes direction and strength. Their is gale force winds and hurricane force winds do excuse me for using such an extreme example. This on the other hand is a game not reality even though this is the case the winds seem kinda realistic to me and its a good challenge to have different wind particularly in online jumping where I am good at Serbia in backwind and have more of a chance winning there in backwind than with frontwind.
Your friendly neighbourhood skijumper,

<Heathcliffe Dyba>

Pflegar and Jaluvka's records are fiction

www.youtube.com/DSJtube
techman
Posts: 8
Joined: 04 Dec 2008, 19:38

Post by techman »

No, the wind is not realistic as you can see in every skijump-competition shown on TV. Thats just wrong.

And as you stated, the only fair competition is when theres nearly the same wind for all. This should also be the case for the online record list.
Thomasat
Posts: 20
Joined: 07 Feb 2007, 02:58
Location: Norway

Post by Thomasat »

I notice many of you are saying that the wind conditions online is perfect and everything..
Well, not to sound rude.. But I couldn't care less!

The entire point with this post was trying to tell how bad the OFFLINE part of the game really works when jumping with multiply players in several hills, then it becomes just about the wind conditions and not about fun or ski jumping..

Why can't it just be like every world record has to be jumped online?
Then it wouldn't really matter if there is some kind of option letting us customise the conditions offline as we can't set world records when jumping offline?

At least there should be some option to disable the entire wind or something?
It's not possible to set any new world records with 0m/s, so why not?

Why do you have to reset the world records if you make it possible to somewhat change the conditions while playing offline? We don't need to able to force it to like 4m/s upwind, just make it possible to somewhat keep it the same wind condition all the competition through, make us set it between 0 - 2m/s, those who then decide to have 2m/s upwind in all hills will still not be able to set any new world records? And there isn't really any need of resetting any of the current records just because of such a option has been added? Or the best thing would just be to make the world records only attainable while jumping online and the problem is solved?

Or has this game become all about online jumping? Because if that's the truth, just tell us :)
To be honest the offline part is simply no fun, almost a joke how it works now for those of us playing with multiply jumpers, a few CPU-jumpers in several hills..

It's okay if you don't focus on the offline part anymore, most of the resent updates has been all about the online part of the game anyway, so it has felt for quite along time that the offline part has been "ditched", so please just tell us if you don't got any plans about improving it, I won't blame you, I understand that the money lies in the online part and not the offline. Because it's a bit frustration sitting her waiting for offline improvements when they never comes, it's better to get a statement on this rather that just sitting her waiting for something that will never come.

For me Deluxe Ski Jumping is and has always been a game where I create like 60-100 CPU-players, and got like 10-15 of my own players, making my own complete world cup with all the hills I want and start to play all the hills through. But this is simply no fun any more when it has become this unrealistic and all about having luck with the wind, even if I lead with quite a lot after the first round I might end up in a impossible situations where I can't win because of horrid wind conditions in the second half, where some lucky bastard before me got like 2m/s upwind, and I'm getting like 3-4m/s tailwind?

Fun? No.. Frustrating? YES! Does it make me quite the game? YES!! Is that good? Nope..
It's not fun when a entire competition is jumped in massive tailwind either, in the real world the speed would have been increased so there would be some decent distances any way, but when playing offline all that happens is that barley no one gets passed the K-Point? This is not realistic either, and not that much fun.. But I can be okay with it as the conditions stays the same all the competition through, but guess what?? Some lucky bastards WILL ALWAYS GET UPWIND! 95% of the players get a horrid tailwind, but a few lucky ones get upwind making them auto getting in top five?! Not fun, nor realistic!

When having a full competitions with 60 jumpers, it might even happen that the first 30 jumpers have horrid tailwind, then suddenly the last 30 jumpers get a stable upwind?..

All I'm asking is somewhat stable wind conditions when playing offline, how the wind suddenly changes makes it more frustrating than fun! It's not even realistic or anything? Just destroys the entire game for me? It would be better if the competition actually gets cancelled, instead of having a few players being lucky with the conditions winning!


I understand that those of you playing online feel that the game is working good, but you have to remember that not all of us play online, it's actually a offline part as this game as well? Is it right that we are ditched? The online part might work perfectly, but how does that help us playing offline? The offline part isn't really working as it should at all, a game should be about either realism or fun? Or something in between? The current condition of the offline part of this game, it's either fun nor realistic?


Sorry if this seems like a big "whine" post, but it's not that much fun having such a great game being destroyed by stupid wind conditions in almost every competition that consist with more than 20 jumpers? Also when it seems that us offline players is getting completely ditched it doesn't make us feel any better..
Grufugl
Posts: 192
Joined: 23 Jan 2007, 03:48
Location: Norway

Post by Grufugl »

Thomasat wrote:Why can't it just be like every world record has to be jumped online?
Then it wouldn't really matter if there is some kind of option letting us customise the conditions offline as we can't set world records when jumping offline?

At least there should be some option to disable the entire wind or something?
It's not possible to set any new world records with 0m/s, so why not?

Why do you have to reset the world records if you make it possible to somewhat change the conditions while playing offline? We don't need to able to force it to like 4m/s upwind, just make it possible to somewhat keep it the same wind condition all the competition through, make us set it between 0 - 2m/s, those who then decide to have 2m/s upwind in all hills will still not be able to set any new world records? And there isn't really any need of resetting any of the current records just because of such a option has been added? Or the best thing would just be to make the world records only attainable while jumping online and the problem is solved?

Or has this game become all about online jumping? Because if that's the truth, just tell us :)
To be honest the offline part is simply no fun, almost a joke how it works now for those of us playing with multiply jumpers, a few CPU-jumpers in several hills..
...

All I'm asking is somewhat stable wind conditions when playing offline, how the wind suddenly changes makes it more frustrating than fun! It's not even realistic or anything? Just destroys the entire game for me? It would be better if the competition actually gets cancelled, instead of having a few players being lucky with the conditions winning!

I understand that those of you playing online feel that the game is working good, but you have to remember that not all of us play online, it's actually a offline part as this game as well? Is it right that we are ditched? The online part might work perfectly, but how does that help us playing offline? The offline part isn't really working as it should at all, a game should be about either realism or fun? Or something in between? The current condition of the offline part of this game, it's either fun nor realistic?
...
I enjoy the online game, so for me personally it's not such a big issue anymore, but sure, I agree to all of this. I see dsj offline now only as a training and "warming up" mode for the online game. I can't really see how dsj offline can function as a proper game on it's own the way it is. I have tried to play offline together with mates where we play with some jumpers each, and it is very rare to experience a remotely fair competition. I can't imagine many people play like this on a regular basis?
Thomasat
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Joined: 07 Feb 2007, 02:58
Location: Norway

Post by Thomasat »

I'm playing offline with multiply jumpers 99.9% of the time?
Jussi Koskela
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Post by Jussi Koskela »

Perhaps the best solution would be to randomize the initial wind and after that limit the change of wind so that it won't get out of certain bounds. Maybe 1 m/s or less to each direction. This is not realistic, but it's not fun either if the rounds are cancelled or if you have to wait minutes for a wind that's within the fair bounds.

Anyway, this could make it impossible in some cases to reach lenghts that have been possible to reach with the current wind model. For example you could have had a tail wind during the inrun phase (meaning more speed) and then the wind could have changed to head wind during the flight (meaning more height).
Kjell Arild Korbøl
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Post by Kjell Arild Korbøl »

Jussi Koskela wrote:Perhaps the best solution would be to randomize the initial wind and after that limit the change of wind so that it won't get out of certain bounds. Maybe 1 m/s or less to each direction. This is not realistic, but it's not fun either if the rounds are cancelled or if you have to wait minutes for a wind that's within the fair bounds.

Anyway, this could make it impossible in some cases to reach lenghts that have been possible to reach with the current wind model. For example you could have had a tail wind during the inrun phase (meaning more speed) and then the wind could have changed to head wind during the flight (meaning more height).
Please don't change the wind conditions, as it will ruin PB-hunt offline.

Then it's better to make a "equal" wind to all jumpers in the same hill/competition, something like the way you did online. So that a offline-competition will be fair to all jumpers. :D
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