onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be done

Ideas and suggestions for improving DSJ4.
Olaste
Posts: 13
Joined: 15 Dec 2011, 01:47

onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be done

Post by Olaste »

In onlinecompetition I recognized, that there are people who fall to qualify. It is a lot easier to get in first round by falling when you are not one of the best players. Even into second round it is easier by falling.
We had the problem in DSJ3 as well, but in DSJ4 there are some differences: There are more jumpers right now and everything is closer now. For me it does not realy make a sense to take rules from reality in DSJ4 onlinemode, because in reality - nobody will fall to qualify easier... For me this behaviour (falling for qualification) is a kind of onlineranking manipulation.

The ranking itself is good, but what can be done about it?

Solution 1)
Change in the programming of the jumping (style of the Jumper) to spread more... I think a little bit can be adjusted, but for a real solution a lot have to be done - to much work for a maybe solution - forget it...

Solution 2)
Go away from reality falling rule and delete it - in reality jumpers fall very, very seldom - here in DSJ a lot to often - this implicates players to fall with intent. Why not to count a fallen jump like it is?
Solution 2b)
landing is in my eyes still to hard - when landing will be a little be easier, to throw away the falling rule will not disadvantage the people who has landing probs to much... :mrgreen:


Online jumping has a lot to do with rythm - by beeing not qualified people have to wait - they lose rythm and jump bad, even qualification counts and so ones are not satisfied by own effort and in second step with DSJ - others just get bored and why should they play by knowing that this possibility(beeing frustrated and bored) is high...
In reality a jumper make not so much jumps like an Onlinejumper in a game - that is why some rules in reality make sense, in Onlinegaming not...

Solution 1)
let everybody jump in round one - only 30 in round 2

Solution 2)
let everybody jump in round one and in round 2

Solution 3)
make a trial round, then qualifacation round before round one and round two.

Solution 4)
make a loser pool - not qualified ones jump first round in loser pool without ranking
second round of loser pool with all who do not jump in second round of original competition - there can be a ranking - maybe half the points, because only this second rounds counts for losers ranking...

The rule why only 30 jumpers are allowed for second jump was made because FIS wanted to make jumping more interessting - fans should watch not houres, only a comforteable time and when there are not so many people who are seen at every competition, it is easier to identify with this jumpers - it was an arguement in FIS discussion to make heros for ski jumping interessted people. First step in this direction was in the 80s, when in first round often over 100 jumper were on start and in second round 50 jumper. Only best 15 got WC points...
Online todays rules with 50 (or 40) in first round and 30 in second round are not necessary. We do not need to have such rules and ideas - people play online to get a feeling of beeing heros for themselves but there are no spectators watching... They just wanna have fun and for me fun is more important than a rule copy of reality where the circumstances are totaly different. ;)

Nowadays in reality only a handful of jumpers and nations can win in WC - in 70s and 80s there was AUT, GER (and DDR), FIN, NOR, SWE, YUG, JAP, POL, CAN, US, TCH, SUI, who could win a WC competition and do not forget Eddy, Spain, RUS, BUL and Hungarian jumpers... The technic was not the killer for some nations, but the rules who was made for special interessts...
I just want a good jumping simulation and have fun by comparing myself in online competitions - but my time is to valuable to wait and get bored by watching a perfect copy of rules which have the only right of existence in realities live under differend cicumstances like here in online mode... ;)

Another argument for a rule change are DSJ newbies. They can check online status and mess with with the old hardcore DSJ gods ;) - they just see them winning and have wait, because in the beginning they have no real chance to mess. When they are bored, they will not come again - they are lost for the DSJ world befor becoming part of this good community... ;)
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SuperAdo111
Posts: 650
Joined: 22 Dec 2009, 22:32

Re: onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be d

Post by SuperAdo111 »

1)Thats true,i have to add only one more thing,jussi should make a gates lower because almost (or in every single) hill we broke the record in kulm its 5,5 meters,thats not reallity? Only in Planica is funny to get records right now.
2)Jussi,when i take off why sometimes my skies go down i do not understand,thats nerving me,really we have 5 good jumps and 50 fails in online competition.PLEASE,DO NOT TRY TO MAKE GAME MORE LIKE REALLITY,MAKE IT LIKE GAME,THAT EVERYONE WITH ANY SKILL CAN WIN,THATS A SPIRIT OF SKI JUMPING ;)
bulwa11
Moderator
Posts: 1079
Joined: 23 Mar 2010, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be d

Post by bulwa11 »

SuperAdo111 wrote:1)Thats true,i have to add only one more thing,jussi should make a gates lower because almost (or in every single) hill we broke the record in kulm its 5,5 meters,thats not reallity? Only in Planica is funny to get records right now.
2)Jussi,when i take off why sometimes my skies go down i do not understand,thats nerving me,really we have 5 good jumps and 50 fails in online competition.PLEASE,DO NOT TRY TO MAKE GAME MORE LIKE REALLITY,MAKE IT LIKE GAME,THAT EVERYONE WITH ANY SKILL CAN WIN,THATS A SPIRIT OF SKI JUMPING ;)

if the game becomes arcade-like and easy it'll get boring in a week :roll:
zonaren
Posts: 22
Joined: 23 Jan 2007, 15:00
Location: Sogndal

Re: onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be d

Post by zonaren »

Olaste wrote:In onlinecompetition I recognized, that there are people who fall to qualify. It is a lot easier to get in first round by falling when you are not one of the best players. Even into second round it is easier by falling.
We had the problem in DSJ3 as well, but in DSJ4 there are some differences: There are more jumpers right now and everything is closer now. For me it does not realy make a sense to take rules from reality in DSJ4 onlinemode, because in reality - nobody will fall to qualify easier... For me this behaviour (falling for qualification) is a kind of onlineranking manipulation.
I have an example right here from yesterdays marathon:

Unlucky player did not qualify, while Lucky Player did.

51. Unlucky Player FIN 1157 130.59 m 141.1
96. Lucky Player NOR 1320 128.49 m. 105.1 q*

as you can see, Lucky Player had 105 points. If you add the 21 points he loses because of stylepoints, he gets about 126 points. 15 points below Unlucky Player.
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dzamper
Posts: 218
Joined: 29 Jan 2007, 19:15

Re: onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be d

Post by dzamper »

Adding injuries to the game should help.
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TPo
Posts: 549
Joined: 12 Jan 2010, 20:15
Location: Finland

Re: onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be d

Post by TPo »

dzamper wrote:Adding injuries to the game should help.
Mäkiturvat? :wink:
Total Length: 5353.38 m // 7749.06 m // 1603.92 m
Total Length: 14706.36 m
--
Winner of Ski-Stars World Championships (large hill) // 2nd of Ski-Stars World Championships (team) // Winner of Ski-Stars DSJ2 Cup
SuperAdo111
Posts: 650
Joined: 22 Dec 2009, 22:32

Re: onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be d

Post by SuperAdo111 »

bulwa11 wrote: if the game becomes arcade-like and easy it'll get boring in a week :roll:
no,no i wanna say that jussi should make easier landing and that what i said up. Because a month after that 40% of falls isnt real ... We have 24 jumps in 1 wc,i fall 4 times and i play it really long time,i learned it but something go wrong ,so..
Christian Hermann 2
Posts: 98
Joined: 27 Jan 2011, 23:09

Re: onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be d

Post by Christian Hermann 2 »

Only gates should be changed at kulm. the other hills are okay. please do not change the whole landing system.
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SuperAdo111
Posts: 650
Joined: 22 Dec 2009, 22:32

Re: onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be d

Post by SuperAdo111 »

Christian Hermann 2 wrote:please do not change the whole landing system.
not whole but make knees stronger and other stuffs..
Zmaster
Moderator
Posts: 774
Joined: 08 Feb 2011, 11:20

Re: onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be d

Post by Zmaster »

SuperAdo111 wrote:
Christian Hermann 2 wrote:please do not change the whole landing system.
not whole but make knees stronger and other stuffs..
I think that the jumper's skis are tiny weeny little bit too much out of control sideways. Otherwise I find it really really good.
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That's gotta hurt.
SuperAdo111
Posts: 650
Joined: 22 Dec 2009, 22:32

Re: onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be d

Post by SuperAdo111 »

Yes,its not place but Jussi you should make a skies more heavier bcs when i jump and weird fall at 2.0 in chest skies just fly o.O
TPo
Posts: 549
Joined: 12 Jan 2010, 20:15
Location: Finland

Re: onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be d

Post by TPo »

I don't want the landing changed at all. The harder the better.
Total Length: 5353.38 m // 7749.06 m // 1603.92 m
Total Length: 14706.36 m
--
Winner of Ski-Stars World Championships (large hill) // 2nd of Ski-Stars World Championships (team) // Winner of Ski-Stars DSJ2 Cup
Metsi
Posts: 219
Joined: 23 Jan 2007, 11:11
Location: Gostynin [Poland]

Re: onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be d

Post by Metsi »

The easiest resolution to solve the 'fallin Q' process is to narrow the qualifying fall rule to max 5 jumpers. As a kind of the 'lucky looser' rule. I noticed the problem before, i even sometimes use the same trick to get into the 50 or 30, but since it's not yet forbidden i see nothing wrong with it.

So, someone please post the 'max 5 crashed jumpers qualify' idea in the right section and i think Jussi will surely think it through ;)
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Jussi Koskela
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Re: onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be d

Post by Jussi Koskela »

Metsi wrote:The easiest resolution to solve the 'fallin Q' process is to narrow the qualifying fall rule to max 5 jumpers. As a kind of the 'lucky looser' rule. I noticed the problem before, i even sometimes use the same trick to get into the 50 or 30, but since it's not yet forbidden i see nothing wrong with it.

So, someone please post the 'max 5 crashed jumpers qualify' idea in the right section and i think Jussi will surely think it through ;)
This kind of rule could be pretty reasonable. Those hitting the ground with their head first would get less style points than those who try to make a real landing and wouldn't thus win them.
Zmaster
Moderator
Posts: 774
Joined: 08 Feb 2011, 11:20

Re: onlineranking /is it manipulation to fall /what can be d

Post by Zmaster »

Sounds really good to me
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That's gotta hurt.
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