The future of DSJ

General discussion about DSJ4.
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Szymon11
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by Szymon11 »

Jussi Koskela wrote:
liverpoolkd14 wrote:In my opinion the biggest problem is that, Jussi not cooperate with us "PLAYERS", that's it's main thing about future of game, we have Ideas, we have ready projects, the thing is, how we us them? WE CAN'T ! because we don't have option to implement them in to game. Am sure that on this forum we have many of people who has some good skill with (Programing, Modeling, Promotion, other) Sand can always help to improve the game, and Am sure that they will made this for free just becasue we all love ski jump.
What do you suggest more concretely?
It's a truth but in fact we do not know how is creating. Jussi hasn't shared his method of programming compeletely yet. I think there are some talented people who can learn quickly how to build game better and better. On the other hand making enterpises like Koskela&XYZ is not quite good venture. It may elicit a dispute, because every programist can have different vision of the future of game...
To sum up this situation is very complicated and it's not as easy as it seems to solve it.
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greex1
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by greex1 »

Jussi Koskela wrote:
J.MIRO wrote:
Maciejo-96 wrote:Hinzenbach HS94, Einsedeln HS117 or eventually Hakuba HS131 would be nice to see too :)
No, Jussi doesn't have permissions for this hills. And, as Jussi said releasing new hills for summer doesnt pay off. But one hill, for GP and wnich is popular and is legendary for summer jumping...
Well, the pages like skijumping.pl always informating about new versions of DSJ. I think this time couldn't be different.
http://www.skijumping.pl/wiadomosci/161 ... hofshofen/
Check the comments on that site and you will see what's the biggest problem.
This is big problem, create system to check key legality in online database? If the same key is use on many another computer, key registration is unsuccessful ^^.
Last edited by greex1 on 29 Mar 2014, 22:33, edited 1 time in total.
DSJ4 Beta 2 - WR Total Lenght, WR Bad Mitterndorf HS200 and Zakopane HS94
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mask
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by mask »

1. What if You don't have internet connection.
2. What if You want register DSJ on another computer?
greex1
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by greex1 »

mask wrote:1. What if You don't have internet connection.
2. What if You want register DSJ on another computer?
1. Internet connection is only needful to key registration - if you buy key, you have internet and email address.
2. What is problem? Registriation failed only if the key is on many (5+) computers...
DSJ4 Beta 2 - WR Total Lenght, WR Bad Mitterndorf HS200 and Zakopane HS94
Online World Cup 2011/2012 - World Cup A - 3rd position
Online World Cup 2012/2013 - Ski Flying A winner
Online 4HT 2013/2014 - World Cup A - 3rd position
davisp
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by davisp »

best post ever by sado1. I agree in every point. Jussi, keep new versions coming like sado1 said. Even if it's only minor changes that are easy to do. Release them instantly. A new version keeps the player interested. Don't release 4 hills at once. Release every month one hill. I think sado1 has some really great ideas.
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bulwa11
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by bulwa11 »

Wow, that really is a great post and some really nice ideas from sado1. I agree, small but more frequent changes, even small graphical improvements, some 'eye candy' that hypes people up. Like in one of the versions we got ski traces, I looked forward to that and it was fun checking it out once it came out.
Sandbox mode has a potential to be really fun :)
And just as a sidenote it wouldn't hurt someday to add a huge made up hill, something like a hs280-300 :P
virpi
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by virpi »

Great post by sado. Some additional thoughts: (loooooong post incoming)

My DSJ story is kinda similar to his. I also didn't pay for DSJ 2, and I didn't like the third version very much. DSJ 4 is great though, and I even subscribed to the online mode. Jussi said that the whole game isn't very profitable for him, let my try to break down the core issues for everyone in a few small steps:

1. Ski jumping isn't a very popular sport. While there may be huge fan scenes in Poland, Austria, Germany and some Scandinavian countries, most of the world's population doesn't even know that ski jumping exists.

2. Ski jumping can be compared to other, highly difficult individual sports like snooker. The core fans are all about the discipline itself. The event fans care more about the individual athletes.

3. A video game about ski jumping can follow two basic approaches:

3.1. The casual approach:
- very nice graphics
- not very difficult gameplay
- realistic / licensed hills, jumpers and visuals
- tv like presentation
- some sort of career mode
- online features for a casual community (unlockables, leaderboards, but also stuff like achievements etc.)

3.2. The "hardcore" approach:
- Good-looking, but not too fancy graphics
- difficult gameplay (realism!)
- realistic hills, but no emphasis on imitating the real world otherwise
- simplistic presentation
- no career mode, it's all about jumping and competing online.
- online features for an e-sports community (leaderboards, records, tournaments)

4. DSJ is a hardcore game for the core fans. Of course, I'm generalizing here and there are tons of players out there who play the game / watch the sport casually. But the main demographic of DSJ players consists of very dedicated human beings. DSJ is a difficult game. We have to be realists here: Difficult games aren't for everyone.

5. So, what can we do to both keep the scene and Jussi's bank account healthy? Sado mentioned a few good points, here are some bonus ideas:

5.1. Mod possibilities in the next version of DSJ
DSJ is an old-school game. The community features inside the game are rudimentary. Besides some graphic mods there are no mods out there. Modern PC games very often have active mod communities, which keep the game alive for a very long time. Even smaller games are still being played due to the mods. DSJ is perfectly suited for mods, just think of games like TrackMania to understand my idea. The "original" hills made by Jussi would still remain the core of the game, while the modded hills would provide endless fun for casual DSJ players. Of course, we would need some kind of system to downvote bad hills.

5.2. Better online interaction
All we've got today is that old school chat window. Why no online profiles with records, clans / teams, maybe even achievements (personally, I don't like them, but who knows...)?

5.3. The "e-sports" mode
As I've said, DSJ is a hardcore game. Even if we opened the game for more casual players, DSJ would remain a very difficult game at its core. The "e-sports" mode would provide some sort of possibilty to spectate online events. Of course, this would mean that we wouldn't be able to all jump at the same time anymore, but for some special events (Tour de DSJ, World Championships, etc.) it would be awesome to make the game streamable.

5.4. Mad stuff!
Sado has also mentioned this idea. DSJ is very puristic in its approach. But I also think that some fun modes would be a nice thing to have, e.g. super strong winds, challenges to jump the shortest distance, special team events, etc. Of course, these features should be linked to some kind of gratification.

5.5. Ghosts
This may sound pretty awkward, but I think it would be a nice little addition. Imagine you could directly compare your jump to the world record. This might be difficult with the current engine, and it's also not perfectly practicable as there are different wind conditions in every jump.

5.6. The payment problem
Modern games often are free to play. The basic features and software updates are free for everyone, while special unlockables cost some money. In DSJ, these unlockables would be something like skin packs, color schemes, additional logos, additional elements for the hill editor, and so on. The important thing is that the basic game HAS to provide every core mechanic for free, otherwise people get upset pretty quickly. And of course, it shouldn't be pay to win.

The current payment model for DSJ is kind of obsolete. People see amazing games for free and they don't understand that they should pay for smaller games to get all features. Of course, DSJ is developed by ONE (amazing) person, which is both its biggest weakness and its biggest strength: Updates are hard to apply and they do take some time, but on the other hand, the game is very well polished (no pun intended) and bug-free.

We all have to be realistic. DSJ isn't a game for everyone and it will never be, as long as it stays true to its legacy. And I think that nobody wants DSJ to turn in some kind of terrible social facebook bullshit game just to get more players. The scene itself is small, yet healthy. Maybe we can keep the game alive, maybe we even can grow the scene a little bit by adding some of the features mentioned in this thread.

I've been playing DSJ games for twelve years now, and I'm looking forward to the next twelve!
Jussi Koskela
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by Jussi Koskela »

Words of wisdom above.
crystal
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by crystal »

Jussi Koskela wrote:
jukkis wrote:what about donation through PayPal or so? Once there is a reasonable amount (fair compensation for your work) donated, new hills could be made? A win-win situation for all, no? :)
As crazy as it sounds, but that's illegal in Finland. :shock:
Insane... there is a way to overcome this problem though... you could send out virtual buttons, then people don't simply donate but they buy the the virtual button or greeting card (certificated dsj player or sth like that). or even a bonus hill?

What about gift certificates done in an easy way - so one can buy the game (or maybe online subscription for a certain amount of time) for another person as a birthday / x-mas / easter gift or whatever - so other people get to know the game?

And another thing - it could be a good thing to do a few give-aways (keys to the game) in dedicated skijumping discussion boards or maybe even via webpages. I know, no direct money earning involved here, but a good way to place the name and gain some interest from people who up to this point maybe haven't even heard of the game. Would of course only make sense around the start of the summer / winter season and not now.
MattyPolz14
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by MattyPolz14 »

Jussi Koskela wrote:
Jakob_PL wrote: How about an account? I know, Key is fine, but that's like Minecraft does it, you just register with your Account you have on Mediamond (if you bought that game, it's premium then), so noone can be able to log in with another one's Acc (except that some can publish the password), but then! An account is able to be connected only ONCE at the Moment.
Then a constant Internet connection would be required while playing the game. That's not desirable for many honest players.
To me honestly, I think the solution to this problem is quite simple. Create a DSJ launcher like in minecraft. The benefits previously stated in the quote above still apply because minecraft has found a way to reduce this illegal playing. Before, when the usernames and passwords were used in the launcher, it was really easy for players to distribute their accounts, because playing offline was so easy to crack that it was basically open for anybody; however, they found a solution to this problem, instead of just using a username and password, premium players were required to create a mojang account. This required you to login to the launcher with your email and game account password. This protected your account information, and when you were on, it still called you by your username. Those fixed the problem of always having to be on internet connection, because you could login through a launcher using a "mediamond online account" like the mojang one. This allows you to play offline using an internet protected account while not being on internet! The solution is this whole mediamond account idea to login through a launcher. You would have the option to play online of offline through the launcher. And like I said, without internet, you can play offline with te protection of logging in with an internet account. This would protect the game SO MUCH MORE. This same idea virtually completely eliminated Minecraft's illegal playing problem.

This would force players who are really interested in playing the game to actually get a premium account to actually play legally. This would create much more revenue.

I really hope this game doesn't end this way because it is such an amazing game! Unfortunately, the way the game is right now, the situation where you (Jussi) are in, is always going to be a, "release more hills, or/and new features to keep the game desireable for a lot of people). The only way to make this change would be to create a career mode type thing. Which I honestly hate to say, because I (like a lot of people) don't think that is what DSJ is about. DSJ is a simulator type game which most realistically represents ski jumping of any game ever by far. And that is the way I want it to stay. PLEASE DON'T MAKE IT A CAREER MODE TYPE
THING). I think the only solution to your revenue problem, is truly changing this whole illegal playing problem thing, or at least, that will be the way which has the most effect on gaining revenue. That and just furthur advertisement on the internet as dicussed before.

To be honest, DSJ is truely a game for people who truely love the sport of ski jumping. I have been playing DSJ for 6 years, and I have never played online. I have always just been happy with buying the game and doing jump after jump after jump
On offline mode because I LOVE the sport of ski jumping. As I have said many times before, I am a ski jumper in real life, and this game is my fix when I'm not actually ski jumping :lol: people who truely love this sport will be happy with the repetitive type play that makes this game what it is.

I absolutely love this game, and I hope there is a way to save it, and I hope this helps!

I'm sorry this was a lot to read, but I'm really happy that you read it. I'm just really passionate about this topic (obviously). I believe in you Jussi.
jaceczki
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by jaceczki »

I think you need more PR about the games.
And move one to free games with advertisement - that would be awesome! (more player, more income) :)
davisp
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by davisp »

jaceczki wrote:I think you need more PR about the games.
And move one to free games with advertisement - that would be awesome! (more player, more income) :)
a free game with advertisement only generates enough income if it's a browser game or a game which needs a internet connection all the time.
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virpi
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by virpi »

Jussi, have you ever thought about launching some sort of crowdfunding campaign? Like on kickstarter.
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by Jussi Koskela »

virpi wrote:Jussi, have you ever thought about launching some sort of crowdfunding campaign? Like on kickstarter.
It would be difficult to create enough fuss around an an already existing game. All kind of non-regular trading is also forbidden by the Finnish law. Crowdfunded projects may only sell the products for fixed standard price and cannot be about supporting the cause.
Peter Muraus 3
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Re: The future of DSJ

Post by Peter Muraus 3 »

I'm pretty sure all of us have played and used illegal copies of games and for an individual developer such as Jussi that can be devastating. Ski jumping games, as said before are not for the masses, but for the ones that love the sport and know how to appreciate all the work our finish friend had put into. I am palyer since DSJ2, bought DSJ3, DSJ4, even online subscription and will continue to contribute just to make sure Jussi has enough time and motivation to keep up the good work. I don't know for the other players, but being a fan of non-popular game genres - ski jumping, cycling manager, Simcity - to all which I bought some copies (in worth of cc.250€ over a few years) i am for one grateful and hope he makes it just the way he does. Small solutions, discussing with players and tries to implement as much features as possible. This game is awesome and should not be changed drastically. THUMPS UP!
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